Hi Another Introduction and a Formating Question?

[Knulp]

Hi all,

Just a quick introduction first.

I have worked in the computer games industry for 21 years as a Creative Director/Graphic Artist and have many published products to my name. In that time as well as helping to run a development studio, I also worked directly for a game's industry publisher (which hopefully gives me a minor insight into that side of business for writing).

I began working on my first novel ten months ago and I'm currently halfway through the second draft of my first novel (YA). I just discovered this site by accident today and it looks like a real gold mine of information. Also as we all know, writing can be a lonely business; the opportunity to talk to other people pursuing this addiction is too great to pass by.

One question I've been wondering about regards manuscript layout formatting for submission. I come from a business background where the usual formatting is a line space between each paragraph with no indentation for a new line. Nice clean rectangular blocks of text in other words.

However, obviously published books on the whole tend to have no spaces between paragraphs and an indentation for a new paragraph.

So my question is, does it matter to an agent/editor which formatting technique I use when I submit my work?

I'd be grateful for any insight you could give me on this.

Regards,

Nick

[Meadowhawk]

I'm fairly new to this forum myself, also, Nick. However, I think I can offer some direction.

The Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America (SFWA) maintain a website that has a wonder resources section for the general public.
Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America, Inc.
An entire section is dedicated to the wondrous form of the manuscript. I enjoy the one by Vonda N. McIntyre as it is in fact set in mss format. Nothing like visual aids for teaching! Beyond that, and this is the most important part, read the publisher's guidelines for the market you are submitting to so you understand their personal preferences for submissions.

Good luck!

[Meadowhawk]

Hi Nick, perhaps I can lend some direction.

The Science Fiction & Fantasy Writers of America (SFWA) [sfwa (dot) org/writing] have a wonderful resource section for writers available to the general public. There is an entire section dedicated to manuscript formating. Look at the article by Vonda N. McIntyre, as it is in fact set in manuscript format (gotta love visual aids for teaching). Some of the others talk about electronic submissions as well.

As always the most important thing is to check the publishers' guidelines for submission. Follow their preferences to the letter. And good luck!

[Havlen]

I definitely think it is worth it to format your manuscript based on a standard style for the industry, and make any changes that the publisher's or agent's website suggests. This gives your presentation a professional look.

It's one of the first things they are going to notice about your manuscript. So, you don't want that to be something negative, even if it is rather minor.

The only time I don't go by guidelines is when it is something rather silly. I've seen some places that list stuff like no contractions or always use italics for thoughts. But then again, if I see a publisher saying something like always use italics for thoughts they get moved to the bottom of the list. (And I have seen that too. I think they were some relatively new electronic press.)

[Knulp]

Many thanks all for the info, just what I needed. One big reformatting job here we come!

Just a quick question about the standard font being Courier. I had read previously that Baskerville (which is what I'm using currently) is fine. It certainly is a very clean and easy to read font.

Is my manuscript in danger of standing out for the wrong reasons if I don't use Courier? I'm doing my best here to sit on my graphic design training here!

Must repeat mantra a hundred times 'I do not know better than the editor when it comes to layout and fonts.'

Thanks,

Nick

[Havlen]

I would stick with Courier. The reason it is so popular is that it is a monospaced font which makes it easier on the eyes and much easier to edit.

Do not listen to your graphic design training. Unless you are putting together a picture book, your job as an author submitting works to publishers/agents is not to show off your graphic design. You want to present the work in the easiest format to read so that you can show off your writing.

[Knulp]

That's a very good point. Thanks for the advice - Courier it is.

Nick

[Mary Hoffman]

I don't think there's a publisher or agent in the world who would give a flying proverbial what font you used if you were submitting a stonking good story with memorable characters, interesting setting and a flair for language!

But it sounds as if you are thinking of submitting an entire novel - bad idea. Publishers (but increasingly in the UK they won't accept unagented books) and agents usually want a crisp one A4 page synopsis and a maximum of the first three chapters. They'll ask if they want to see the rest.

I still use New York, btw - does that make me a dinosaur?

Good luck with your submission.

Mary

[Havlen]

Originally Posted by Mary Hoffman

I don't think there's a publisher or agent in the world who would give a flying proverbial what font you used if you were submitting a stonking good story with memorable characters, interesting setting and a flair for language!

If your writing and story were good enough you could probably submit it on pink paper and still get published.

The point isn't what you can get away with if you already have the best novel written this decade. The point is eliminating as much as possible that could leave a bad impression (however slight) and putting your writing at the forefront.

[Teresa Edgerton]

Originally Posted by Mary Hoffman

I don't think there's a publisher or agent in the world who would give a flying proverbial what font you used if you were submitting a stonking good story with memorable characters, interesting setting and a flair for language!

Sure, but it's getting them to read far enough to find all that out that's the challenge. And for new writers, improper formatting can make an unfavorable first impression. Why risk it?

Later on, it's different. Once you have a contract, or a track record as a published writer, they'll just roll their eyes (because without a monotype serif font you've made life a little more difficult for the production department) and accept the manuscript. They know you, they know your professionalism, they love your story. But none of this applies when they first pick up the manuscript for your first book.

[Knulp]

Yes obviously I would hope they they would look past my creative use of fonts, hand pressed paper and the leather bound front cover! However, as a new author all I want them to do is concentrate on the manuscript, nothing more.

I'll reserve the use of 'better' fonts for the future then (somewhere after my third published novel).

I really appreciate all the info. This is exactly the sort of thing that is so easy to get wrong when you are starting out.

Nick

[Ursa major]

I've never understood why a monospaced font, such as Courier, helps anyone. As far as I recall, I've yet to read a book using such a font, so it would be no use when trying to work out the number of words on a page, for instance, nor the published page count. (And I don't like to read text in Courier, but that's just me.)

[Meadowhawk]

Google will net you page after page of discussion on this very topic. There are even heartfelt pleas from folks like Deanna Hoak, a freelance copyeditor who's up for a Hugo , about why you should use a monospaced font (sorry, I can't post links yet).

The basic logic behind ?why? is that a monospaced font will have the same number of possible text spaces per line, so you can calculate accurately how many words on average per line and per page X the number of pages to consistantly calculate a number of words in the mss. Note I said consistantly not accurately. There are weeks worth of reading on the subject on forums and websites if you enjoy that sort of thing. However, I believe the point is if this is convention, breaking it will not bring you extra notice--more likely it will end you up prematurely off some slush piles and into the trash.

[Havlen]

It is easier to spot grammatical and spelling errors in a monospaced font. Plus, it is supposed to be easier on the eyes. It is similar to double-spacing your manuscript which is done for the same reasons.

As for an accurate word count... well, they really don't care about that, do they? That's why word count is done by using the average number of words in a full line times number lines on a page times number of pages. If they wanted an accurate word count it'd be done by going to tools and word count. They want to count whitespace too.

And yes, I'd imagine it would help estimating the published page count much more than having people send manuscripts in various non-monospaced fonts. I'm sure most editors can take a double-spaced courier manuscript with one inch margins all around and not only have a reasonably accurate page count estimation on a novel in a non-monspaced font with justification, but also what font sizes will lead to how many pages (since different books have different font sizes as well).

At least, those editors that make those type of decisions would be able to do that. After all, 100k words using that method for a word count is probably going to end up within +/- 10 pages of the same number of pages in a times new roman 12 pt justified text novel.

[Mary Hoffman]

My point was that as long as your submission is double-spaced and printed on one side of A4 paper (in the UK) and not in an elaborate font, that will do.

As for the slush pile, in the UK you can almost forget it; many of the big publishers will not accept unsolicited texts any more and that means going first to an agent. I'm not sure about the US.

And you do the word count yourself, using Tools on a Mac. My contracts from Bloomsbury always say 50,000 words but I've never submitted less than 80,000 and they don't mind at all. City of Flowers was 115,000 I think.

I usuially reckon 3,000 to 3,500 words per chapter and twenty plus chapters but my daughter writes longer chapters of 5,000 words.

I don't see how a writer can be on top of their material without knowing how many words they've written per day, per chapter or whatever but I guess everyone's different.

Mary