Martin reading newbie here

[Thoheeks Bili]

Well , I know your in Ottawa( ack, gag )..I'm in Cambridge, on
Maybe this is called a "hijack"? lol

Where's the rest?

[MIDNIGHT]

Northern BC

[Zee]

*Sigh*

I finished A Feast For Crows. Now I wait with everyone else for the Dance. I need to gather my thoughts before commenting on this last book.

[Boaz]

Gather up, Zee. I eagerly await your observations.

[Zee]

Originally Posted by Boaz

Gather up, Zee. I eagerly await your observations.

Heh. I don't know if I'll bring anything new or refreshing in my perspective. I certainly don't have any "theories" to expose about what might happen, I just have general comments on the characters and their development so far.

Cersei: never have I despised a character as much as she. At one point I almost felt sorry for her when she went on about how Robert was abusive to her, but when you see what she does to all those around her, you can't help but pray for her downfall. Does she have ANY redeeming qualities whatsoever? I don't think so.

Jamie: rehabilitated and moving over to the "good guy" side. His development as a character has been a pleasure to read so far. I looked forward to all of Jamie's POV chapters, and since I'm getting so attached to the character I can only guess that Martin will kill him off soon enough, as he seems to do quite often. I love how Jamie uses his golden hand to slap people upside the head when he's upset now. Ser Ronnet felt the "golden hand of justice" when he insulted Brienne, had me laughing and cheering.

Catelyn: something has always bothered me about this character from the first book and onward. She's very self centered and feels that anything she does is just as long as it's for her or her children. I still remember from the first book after Bran was in the coma how she said to Jon "it should have been you". I know she was grieving and upset at seeing her husband's bastard son around, but it was not Jon's fault that he exists. Then of course at the Red Wedding what does she do when Robb is slain? She kills a totally innocent bystander because well, she had to kill someone right? I understand madness overtook her but I can't forgive that. I was happy to see her dead, although now she's back in un-dead form judging others again, and I hate it.

Sansa: I never really was that interested in the Sansa character until recently. I love the way Martin is handling the fact she's trying to maintain a new personality with Alayne. I've heard of abused children who are abducted and eventually follow their abductors and "forget" their origins and actually believe they belong to the abductor, I see Sansa potentially falling into that with Littlefinger. It will be very interesting to see where this storyline goes.

Greyjoys: Theon better hope he's already dead because I can't see him causing any sort of problems for either of his uncles should he return in a following book. The Crow's Eye and Victarion would make short work of that pansy. He sort of reminds me of the Viserys of house Greyjoy, he thinks he's more important than he really is. Other than that I don't know what to think of the whole Iron Throne plotline.

Brienne: I really like her as a character. Loyal, dedicated and stubborn in her cause to a fault. I really hope she survives the undead Catelyn encounter but it doesn't look good. Did I mention I hate the undead Catelyn?

Arya: Oh the sweet and innocent Arya who kills people in their sleep. Is her sudden blindness a punishment for her actions or some sort of training she must endure in her new environment? Perhaps a bit of both, only Martin knows.

There seem to be an abundance of plot lines and characters so I just don't know how everything will fit together in the end. On the Stark side we still have Bran, Rickon, Sansa, Arya and Jon - how will all their stories weave into the conclusion of the battle for Westeros?

Daenerys is the rightful queen, has the dragons and now the army, how will she interact with the other houses once she gets closer?

Lannisters, what the hell is going to happen to them now that Cersei seems to have screwed them over royally so to speak? What's Tyrion supposed to do now that mercenarys are out looking for his head? He's not too difficult a person to spot.

I can't type anymore, there's just too many different characters and plot lines to try and make sense of everything right now. All in all, it's a fantastic series so far and I find myself thinking about during the day whenever I have some free time.

Dance with Dragons, please be published soon...

[Boaz]

Excellent, Zee. Don't feel confused you just as much as the rest of us, well except for Wert and Raven.

Cersei has one redeeming quality... she's hot. And in her mind, that's enough.

Jaime's new found desire to do the right thing is indeed fun to watch. I'm cheering for him, but I'm not convinced he'll completely come over to the good side. With a trebuchet, he said.

Catelyn is... you know what? I'm not going to reiterate my hatred again. Instead I'll just welcome you to the club.

Sansa "forgetting" who she is and psychologically adopting Alayne is something new to me. I think this is a very interesting observation. The kindly man at the house of Blank and White is very overt in trying to persuade Arya into denying her background and Arya fights him... while on the other hand Petyr has asked Sansa only to pretend to be Alayne and Sansa seems to be eager to do so. Hmmm. I wish I had something more substantial to say about this. I guess I'll have to wait for the others to chime in.

Theon will have a POV in ADWD.

Brienne is a character that is new to me. I've read dozens and dozens and dozens of fantasy books over the decades and I can't remember another character like Brienne. I've seen enough Jons, Neds, Robbs, Danys and Brans to make me puke... and by killing Ned so quickly, GRRM sucked me in. Ned was supposed to be the hero. Ned's dead, baby. Ned's dead. Anyway, I've seen Cersei, Robert, Littlefinger, Tywin, Varys, Theons, Eurons, Aryas, and all the rest. Yet I cannot recall a mule headed, freakish strong, conservative, noble, giant, warrior maid who continually quests with an ineptness to rival Pate the spotted Pig Boy. Mayhaps I've been reading the wrong books, but she's a breath of fresh air to me.

Martin has given great twists to old characters and plot lines and by doing so has created some memorable heroes/villains... the line tends to blur. Jaime is developing a conscience while Tyrion and Stannis are losing theirs. Ned cherished his honor and yet his daughters are learning to be conniving backstabbers, one quite literally.

[TK-421]

Good summary Zee of some of the characters but, I disagree (because I like to sometimes) on 2 points:

Cersei: She has the redeeming quality of being an overprotective mother to Tommen. But take heart, she's stupid and f@*#ed things royally for little Tommen. And, Boaz, she's loosing that hottness factor and getting rather rotund.

Jaime: Even though he's doing some decent things now, he will never trully be a "good guy".

Oh and Boaz, Tyrion is not loosing his consious, he's just forgotten it for a while. I know of a real little hottie with 3 dragons that can make him remember it real fast.

[Zee]

Originally Posted by Boaz

Sansa "forgetting" who she is and psychologically adopting Alayne is something new to me. I think this is a very interesting observation. The kindly man at the house of Blank and White is very overt in trying to persuade Arya into denying her background and Arya fights him... while on the other hand Petyr has asked Sansa only to pretend to be Alayne and Sansa seems to be eager to do so. Hmmm. I wish I had something more substantial to say about this. I guess I'll have to wait for the others to chime in.

Yes I don't know if this is what Martin is going for with the Sansa storyline, but in the later chapters he introduces them as "Alayne" as opposed to "Sansa" which might show she's starting to think of herself as Alayne. During her POV thoughts she refers to Peter as "my father" so it could be that she'll totally go across and accept being another person. This is not that unusual in people that have suffered severe emotional distress.

[Zee]

Originally Posted by TK-421

Good summary Zee of some of the characters but, I disagree (because I like to sometimes) on 2 points:

Jaime: Even though he's doing some decent things now, he will never trully be a "good guy".

Are there truly any "good guys" in Martin's world though? People do what they do out of either duty, loyalty or some other motive such as love. There have been so many people who have killed others, can any of them be seen as good? Even if you agree with what they've done and why they've had to murder people, does it ultimately make them a bad person? I don't know.

[Boaz]

Ned's a good guy. Boring, misguided, judgemental, and humorless, but he's a good guy.

Jaime's been a bad guy, a very bad guy. He'd like to be a good guy and he's working on it, but it's hard for him. He and Tyrion are my favorite characters. I really am enjoying Jaime's working out of his salvation... He's asking himself these questions: Should I repent and to whom? Can I atone for my crimes? Can I just forget the past and start over? Could anyone really love me for me? Can I change the way history will view me? He's intriuging to be sure, but his crimes are plentiful.

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Originally Posted by Zee

Are there truly any "good guys" in Martin's world though? People do what they do out of either duty, loyalty or some other motive such as love. There have been so many people who have killed others, can any of them be seen as good? Even if you agree with what they've done and why they've had to murder people, does it ultimately make them a bad person? I don't know.

Welcome to "Why Aegon loves this Series".......its a new game show....no prizes, so its kinda lame....

Anyhow....lessee, a list of good guys...Well theres Ned (DEAD), Aemon (DEAD) Robb (DEAD) Jon Arryn (DEAD) Lord Mormont (DEAD) Donal Noye (DEAD) Great Jon Umber (DEAD) Qhorin Halfhand (DEAD) Beric Dondarrion (DEAD) ......Im sure I missed a few corpses....strike that I mean good guys. Im sure I missed a few good guys....

Theres still Jon Snow, Samwell, Garlan Tyrell, Barristan freakin Selmy, and a few others left....

[TK-421]

Oh come on Aegon, I expect my life-size cardboard cutout of Tyrion delivered ASAP.

I am with Boaz, the Lannister brothers are truly my favs as well. The one truly "good guy" I really enjoy is Samwell. Although I like some of the houses on the fringes, i.e. Martells and Greyjoys as well.

Anyway, Zee, yes Sansa is Alayne and that's why I argued that the returning POV is not Theon but Sansa but my fellow chroniclers through that was lame. I also have said that Sansa will be Littlefinger's downfall and I hope that's truw. There is much yet we have not seen from this former damsell in distress. "You have learned well, young one..."

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Well TK, yer the one with a penchant for dwarves with mis-matched eyes and web footed prostitutes name Chloe.....not me. So enjoy yer life sized (really? life sized....whats that ? 3 foot?) dwarf poster.

Tyrion is not a good guy....lest you forget he quarrelled his father, had a man beaten so he could have his prostitute, had one man turned into soup to protect his whore, lied a number of times, stole on occassion and plotted against his family...

Oh thats right, he protected Sansa, saved Kings Landing and is rather witty....guess that makes him a good guy.

[TK-421]

Ha! He'd go well with my Frodo and Gimli standees...

Sorry, if I mistyped or that I injected a meaning in my post that was never meant to be there.

Yes, I am clearly a Tyrion fan and think he is brilliant character but I never said he was a good guy.

[Boaz]

TK, gotta play Devil's Advocate on this one.

I dunno if I'd classify Samwell Tarly as a good guy. Does good guy just mean absence of evil or does good imply being proactive against evil? The only good thing Sam has done is punch Dareon's lights out.

You could argue that he saved Gilly and her unnamed baby. But really, Gilly did more of the saving than Sam... and Sam did not even save the baby! Remember, he was overcome by Meera... worthless.

Sam is a tool. Not a jerk, he's a pawn in the Game. He blabs whatever someone tells him to say. Kinda like Sansa. Yeah, but he brought Maester Aemon's word to the Citadel! He brought it to the wrong people... idiot!

If being a stupid, worthless parrot is being a good guy, then Sam is the hero of the age!

As for Tyrion and Jaime, they want to be good guys... the problem is that they are already bad guys. They'd like to be heroes and save everyone and be congratulated for it... but when their efforts are not recognized they tend to react poorly.

Tyrion told Jon that most people would rather deny hard truths than accept them. Tyrion does an admirable job of this, but he's not perfect. He sees himself as a victim of his father... in many ways this drives him to succeed in other areas. Yet, I think it blinds him to his major character flaw of ingratitude.