Point of View

[vintagefury]

So, a friend of mine just blitzed through the entire HP series and myself and some other friends sat around until 3am dissecting parts of it. One aspect that came up was POV. I figured we could perahaps talk about it here - sorry if this topic has been done to death.

POV: What's your favorite? Strenghts and weaknesses?

To spur the topic a bit, I suppose, I tend to write in either third person limited or third person omniscient.

For third person omniscient, I like the freedom to show a lot of action and develop a lot of characters. You can get a broader sense of the world when you're able to hover over quite a few people, and not just one. However, you're not able to go into one person's head too easily, unless you're cycling through a bunch of different third person limiteds, which is a tricky thing to do without losing your reader.

For third person limited, I like that you really get to know the eyes through which you're seeing the story. They are less someone you're watching the story through and more someone you're experiencing the story with, if it's written well. Unfortunately, if you have a huge sea of characters you want to develop, it's hard to do when you're seeing the story through one person's eyes.

First person I don't even touch. Unless it's a blog or post, I hate writing in first person.

So... thoughts?

[JDP]

Personally, I dislike reading and writing in the first person and in the present tense. Don't really know why, but it just never works for me (though when it's just an occasional section, like in some of China Miéville's work (present tense), It doesn't bother me).

Like vintagefury, I prefer a combo of third person limited & omniscient.

[thecommabandit]

I generally don't notice it a lot, but I've got to say that I like Tolkien's narration style where the narrator almost feels like a character. I generally write third person limited, occasionally with a hint of omniscience. I've experimented with working in first person, and it gives me a much stronger insight to the character so I can predict what they do and think easier, but it's limited to that character's perception, and feels like it neglects others.

Though I've found this one book (Half Asleep in Frog Pajamas) that has a really odd narrative; it's written in present tense, second person. It's strangely effective. It's made even odder that 'I' am supposedly a 25 year-old Welsh-Filipino women living in Seattle and working as a stock broker with a boyfriend who has a pet monkey.

[Birol]

My novels tend to be in 3rd person shifting limited, but that's just because that's what's worked for them so far. I've written short fiction in first person, 3rd limited, and 3rd omniscient. It's really not what I prefer so much as what creates the best feel for the story I'm telling.

[Culhwch]

I'm trying to break new ground and introduce a fourth person, where I'm telling the story from the point of view of the person telling me the story...

Generally I'm a third person kind of person, and usually limited, but roaming from character to character. Usually it'll be from amongst the same smell group of recurring characters, but I'm not averse to throwing in one-offs if they are required. First person is not my favourite, but as Birol says, it depends on the tone I'm after. The novella I wrote for my Honours was first person present tense, purely because that seemed the only way to tell that particular story.

[ice.monkey]

Usually it'll be from amongst the same smell group

What, flowery smells? earthy smells? putrid smells? Is that what you mean?

I have written in 1st person, but find it can be too limiting. It works in some situations where the story itself is very confined, but if its a broader epic style I wouldn't even attempt it. 3rd person, either limited, or omniscient works a lot better for me.

[JFLewis]

My first novel (unpublished) is third person omniscient. Eventually, I'll rewrite it in third person limited and I think that will help the "feel" of the piece.

My third novel (sold and in the copy-editing stage) is first person.

For me, the POV and how well it works really depends on the type of story and the strength of the character's voice.

Is it a sweeping tale of galactic conflict? Third person.

Is it the story of a schizophrenic werewolf trying to discover if his daughter is still alive or if, as he fears, his other self has murdered the girl and concealed all evidence of her death from the main personality…? Probably first person, but third person limited might work.

For some real world examples: Roger Zelazny's first five Amber books work for me because Corwin is such a strong character. He is flawed, opinionated, and witty which makes him a joy to "listen" to as the tale is told. I have no doubt that the novels could have been written successfully in third person, but his voice adds something to the experience that could not have been present in a third person narrative.

Michael Stackpole's Dark Glory War (A Prelude to the DragonCrown War Cycle) works for a different reason. In that case, the character is just so forthright and likeable that it’s fun to read his voice. Stackpole is also introducing a world with fundamental cultural differences from our own. It gives his conclusion more punch for the reader to experience it first hand.

I don't think the other three books in that series would have worked in anything other than third person. When the tale becomes more epic in scale, so does the narrative method... as it should.

With all that said, I personally prefer first person for Urban Fantasy, but for Epic Fantasy I prefer third person limited with chapter breaks between POV swaps. The Lord of the Rings would not have worked in first person. The Hobbit? Maybe.

[Sapheron]

The best is second person future tense. Try writing a novel in it sometime.

Seriously though, I find third and past to be the best, as do most, I believe. First can be alright, but works better for shorter pieces in my opinion.

[Anthony G Williams]

It isn't something I even noticed before I started writing, and even then my choice was automatic rather than considered.

The Foresight War has two main protagonists, plus lots of others who have their own brief scenes, so 3rd person was essential.

Scales follows the story of one man as he undergoes some mysterious and dramatic physical changes, and explores his reactions to these. Tight 3rd would have worked, but IMO 1st was much better for this purpose because it gives a more personal, immediate feel, and that's the way it got written. There are limitations with 1st, of course, in that the reader can only know what the protagonist knows, so events taking place away from the protagonist can only be reported indirectly.

[Paramour]

I’d have to agree with JDP, reading in first person doesn’t tickle my fancy. Even in thoughts, for some reason. It just strikes a cord with me that doesn’t vibrate well. Though, that having been said, I have a book in my collection that is comprised of all diary entries. I love the book. It just wouldn’t be effective if written any other way.

The worst thing about POV is when it gets confused - not third person or the like, but when you have mutliple characters and the POV switches dramatically and without warning back and forth. All the he, she and the like can be confusing and ruin a good story.

[Birol]

Originally Posted by Culhwch

I'm trying to break new ground and introduce a fourth person, where I'm telling the story from the point of view of the person telling me the story...

Trying reading Henry James' Turn of the Screw. It is told as a letter that the host reads to his audience. The letter was written by the MC, but from years later, when she was older and had gained experience and perspective, making the person who wrote the account a different individual or character from the person the events happened to.

[lin robinson]

This gets done a lot. Watson in the Holmes stories. The Writer in "Man Who Would Be King"

No need to go epistolary, you can just have a voice telling the story and give that voice as much stake or involvement in the story as you feel like. Of course then you end up having to have TWO people present at everything.

[KSeriphyn]

My entire fantasy saga is in first person. Yes, daring to the max. I'm finding it a hard thing to sell as three of the four agents and publishers I've submitted to have indicated they are "not confident" in taking on my story.

One of them was kind enough to give me more of a reason. They stated, whilst the story was strong they were concerned pitching a fantasy story in first person wouldn't appeal to the traditional market.

I can only imagine what "traditional" market means.

Needless to say, I'm going to keep submitting until someone is willing to "take a risk". If they do, hopefully it will pay off.

Back to your question... I prefer first person. Third person second.

[lin robinson]

I can only imagine what "traditional" market means.

Goblins mostly. A scattering of banshees and efts.

This surprises me. For one thing that you actually got feedback, and that they would admit sniveling on the story for what I'd consider a petty matter. But I assume they know their business.

I wonder... with nothing to back me up but conjecture... if YA would be more receptive to this. The little YA fantasy I've read was mostly in first person or a POV so locked in to the main that it amounted to the same thing.

Third person second.

Okay, now I know you're messing with our heads.

[SJAB]

Originally Posted by KSeriphyn

My entire fantasy saga is in first person. Yes, daring to the max. I'm finding it a hard thing to sell as three of the four agents and publishers I've submitted to have indicated they are "not confident" in taking on my story.

One of them was kind enough to give me more of a reason. They stated, whilst the story was strong they were concerned pitching a fantasy story in first person wouldn't appeal to the traditional market.

Huh? confused here. Fantasy novels in first person are being published by the big traditional publishers all the time.

Off the top of my head;

Living next - door to the god of love -Justina Robson, published Panmacmillan

Steph Swainston's The Year of our War and No present like Time, published Gollancz

Firethorn - Sarah Micklem published Harpercollins.

Farseer series and Soldier son series - Robin Hobb (and these are as "Traditional" as you can get, what I would call Epic Fantasy)

Novels in 1st POV are being published all the time, you just need to get your work before an agent/publisher that loves it enough.

As for me personally, I have sold short stories written in 1st POV and limited 3rd. The novels I am trying to sell are in 3rd, three with various character POV's. The latest WIP is in limited 3rd from the POV of only four characters.

Not heard of third person second myself.

Only heard of 3rd POV, limited Light penetration, which is from the character's viewpoint of what is happening, but not through his/her eyes or in his/her head. 3rd POV limited deep penetration, where you are in his/her head, thoughts feelings etc.. Then 3rd POV limited cinematic, where no attitude except as it is revealed by facial expressions, gestures etc. Though I have read skilled writers that can take the 3rd person narative from the cinematic, drawing it through the light, down into the deep without missing a beat. It is all in the skill of the writer.