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[Tillane]

Black Mountain - Tyrants

[J-Sun]

Originally Posted by dask

Used to think this myself, but from what I've read (and believe me I'm no expert), even though he's the bridge between classical and romantic music and has a romantic sound he's still very much a classical composer. Academics, choose your weapons!

Yeah, as I said in another thread, I'm not remotely an expert either, but I agree with the bridge idea. IMO, he was definitely possessed of the Romantic sensibility and, while he began very Classically (i.e., Sym.No.1) he ended up playing with the form with scherzos and downright fracturing the form with singing (Sym.No.9). <Tom Hanks>There's no singing in symphonies!</Tom Hanks> I think the piano sonatas and string quartets and so on do similar things (though they have no singing. ) Still, overall, I can see the arguments either way. He was Romantic in spirit with some Classicism and Classical in form with some Romanticism.

[Arthur_Connelly]

Helios - Sons Of Light And Darkness

[AE35Unit]

Originally Posted by J-Sun

Yeah, as I said in another thread, I'm not remotely an expert either, but I agree with the bridge idea. IMO, he was definitely possessed of the Romantic sensibility and, while he began very Classically (i.e., Sym.No.1) he ended up playing with the form with scherzos and downright fracturing the form with singing (Sym.No.9). <Tom Hanks>There's no singing in symphonies!</Tom Hanks> I think the piano sonatas and string quartets and so on do similar things (though they have no singing. ) Still, overall, I can see the arguments either way. He was Romantic in spirit with some Classicism and Classical in form with some Romanticism.

The view I have is that back in the time of C.P.E.Bach,Haydn and Mozart composing was just a job. You were commissioned to do such and such a work in a strict 'classical' way. 4 movements beginnig with a brisk movement,followed by a a slower movement,then usually a trio and minuetee and finaly a fast movement to close,with a recap of the main theme.
Then Beethoven came along,followed the rules to a point then later thought,ah stuff them,I'll write it my way. That to me is the epitome of romanticism!

[AE35Unit]

Now lets see if I can get this to work from my phone.
Quite possibly my favourite Symphony of all

[dask]

Originally Posted by AE35Unit

The view I have is that back in the time of C.P.E.Bach,Haydn and Mozart composing was just a job. You were commissioned to do such and such a work in a strict 'classical' way. 4 movements beginnig with a brisk movement,followed by a a slower movement,then usually a trio and minuetee and finaly a fast movement to close,with a recap of the main theme.
Then Beethoven came along,followed the rules to a point then later thought,ah stuff them,I'll write it my way. That to me is the epitome of romanticism!

It is well to keep in mind that terms like "romantic" and "classical" are catagories no different from "hard sf", "soft sf", and "science fantasy", labels which while useful, also facilitate pigeon-holing. L. David Allen makes three interesting points in his book, SCIENCE FICTION READER'S GUIDE: 1. "any label emphasizes a single aspect of a work and plays down all the rest"; 2. "labels take no notice of gradations in emphasis, leaving little room for a work that is not purely one thing or another"; 3. "labels can be argued with and rejected by anyone with a different point-of-view."

I am not convinced that inserting the scherzo in the second symphony makes Beethoven any more a romantic composer than reinserting the menuetto in the eighth symphony automatically reverts him back to classical. With Beethoven the terms romantic and classical are a balancing act. The Rupert Hughes/Deems Taylor MUSIC LOVERS' ENCYCLOPEDIA defines romantic as "a term much fought for and much evaded. In general, it means the striving after individuality, novelty, and personality of musical expression as opposed to the repetition of classical forms." Certainly there's no modicum of Beethoven lurking between the lines here but it must be balanced against the ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA's reminder that "His work represents the culmination of the so-called Viennese classical school" and that he "was to achieve in music a balance of form and emotion that can only be called classical."

[J-Sun]

Originally Posted by AE35Unit

The view I have is that back in the time of C.P.E.Bach,Haydn and Mozart composing was just a job. You were commissioned to do such and such a work in a strict 'classical' way. 4 movements beginnig with a brisk movement,followed by a a slower movement,then usually a trio and minuetee and finaly a fast movement to close,with a recap of the main theme.
Then Beethoven came along,followed the rules to a point then later thought,ah stuff them,I'll write it my way. That to me is the epitome of romanticism!

Yeah - as I understand it, a lot of this had to do with historical shifts at the time, too. Composers were generally aristocratic like Frederick II or depended on aristocratic patronage like Haydn and all. Beethoven and especially Schubert were in the general musical tradition of Haydn and Mozart but more economically independent, able to get some income from publications (not much for Schubert) and so on. So, rather than turning out many pieces of a type like Bach for church music, or Haydn's 100+ symphonies, the pieces were more individualized (and often much longer).

Originally Posted by dask

It is well to keep in mind that terms like "romantic" and "classical" are catagories no different from "hard sf", "soft sf", and "science fantasy", labels which while useful, also facilitate pigeon-holing. L. David Allen makes three interesting points in his book, SCIENCE FICTION READER'S GUIDE: 1. "any label emphasizes a single aspect of a work and plays down all the rest"; 2. "labels take no notice of gradations in emphasis, leaving little room for a work that is not purely one thing or another"; 3. "labels can be argued with and rejected by anyone with a different point-of-view."

I am not convinced that inserting the scherzo in the second symphony makes Beethoven any more a romantic composer than reinserting the menuetto in the eighth symphony automatically reverts him back to classical. With Beethoven the terms romantic and classical are a balancing act. The Rupert Hughes/Deems Taylor MUSIC LOVERS' ENCYCLOPEDIA defines romantic as "a term much fought for and much evaded. In general, it means the striving after individuality, novelty, and personality of musical expression as opposed to the repetition of classical forms." Certainly there's no modicum of Beethoven lurking between the lines here but it must be balanced against the ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA's reminder that "His work represents the culmination of the so-called Viennese classical school" and that he "was to achieve in music a balance of form and emotion that can only be called classical."

Nope, I agree that the labels are just labels and just approximations. I don't think a scherzo makes Beethoven Romantic. I think it does serve as one example of a modifcation of form that is one tendency in a broad socio-cultural movement often tagged "Romantic". But the symphony with the minuet had itself been modified out of the sinfonia. So it's not like it was static - just that it had gone through Baroque, Classical, and Romantic phases. And Beethoven isn't purely Classical or Romantic to me. Nor is Mozart for that matter. It's just that when I think Classical, I feel safe putting Haydn there and, when I think Romantic, I feel safe putting Schubert there. And I'd arrange Mozart and Beethoven on a temporal and aesthetic scale between them.

-- Oops. To be on topic, Brahms' String Sextet No. 2 in G, Op.36 is now playing.

[dask]

Originally Posted by J-Sun

when I think Romantic, I feel safe putting Schubert there.

Actually, while the ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA begins by saying Schubert is "one of the principal figures in romantic music of the early 19th century" it clears away the fog by assuring us that "He is, however, chiefly to be considered as the last of the classical composers. His music, subjectively emotional in the romantic manner, poetically conceived, and revolutionary in language, is nevertheless cast in the formal molds of the classical school..."

[Allegra]

Interesting discussions here. While Beethoven and Schubert both lived through the transition from Classical to Romantic era, I feel that Beethoven had a Classical mind but a Romantic soul - apart from his talent that's what made his music so powerful and unique; whereas Schubert, poor Schubert had Romantic soul and mind - his works are highly emotional and intimate (listen to his piano sonatas, impromptus and some of his lieder, you want to weep). If not because he was born a bit too early and died way too young he might've achieved much more fame and wealth in his life.

[AE35Unit]

Indeed Allegra,if only Schubert had lived a full life,who knows what he would have achieved and what innovations we would all be talking about now! I identify with the man,he was a frustrated romantic.

[AE35Unit]

Pink Floyd,Dark side of the Moon Live on Sky Arts 1
My 3 year old is fascinated by it,and claps when a song finishes bless him

[Tillane]

Good taste, obviously, AE.

Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds - As I Sat Sadly By Her Side

[dask]

"Mona Lisas and Mad Hatters" by Elton John. Finally located a copy down town, put it on the hard drive and listen to it over and over. Can't help it, cool song. Great way to end LIFE ON MARS.

[HareBrain]

Jethro Tull, Passion Play

"This is the story of the hare who lost his spectacles!"

[Tillane]

Dave Matthews Band - All Along The Watchtower (Live at Folsom Field)

Best cover version ever. Fact.