The Stone Cold Lock on Jon!

[Aegon the Unworthy]

I love the spin Boaz. Absolutely love it. Do you perchance work in the media....or plan presidential campaigns?

J+A...still disgusting.

Why do they have to "bump uglies" to be the heads of the dragon?

[JDP]

I don't see Arya being the head of the dragon either - she's been telling her own story from the very beginning, not going along with everyone else's. I think that's how she'll continue.

Also, she's not heir to Winterfell or the Crown of the North or the Riverlands - Robb willed the Crown to Jon in the event of his death, and Sansa's the heir to Winterfell as the older sibling, and I guess the Riverlands as well (only if something happens to Edmure's child - and assuming they get it back from the Freys).

It's possible that the third head of the dragon could be Arianne Martell, though I find her extremely annoying. The Prince of Dorne had been planning to marry her to Viserys, Dany's late brother.

Alternatively, Bran could be the third head; he can use his Warg abilities to control a dragon and there would never be any question of funny business with Dany (or Jon... eeeww...) because of his physical limitations. This would also balance out the Targaryen/Targaryen-Stark/Stark equation. No Dragon blood in him though, which might make this the wrong tree to be barking up.

[ras'matroi]

I still think that Tyrion could be one of the heads. I think it has been discossed before but in his second pov in AGoT it says:

1. He reads some rare books on dragons, he borrowed from the library of Winterfell.
2. 'Tyrion had a morbid fascination with dragons.'
3.he looked for the dragonskulls, when ha came to King's Landing, found them and thought them rather beautiful than frightening
$. He tells Jon how he dreamed of riding a dragon as a child and that ha was fascinated by fire.

I don't remember if there were other passages like that. But to tell this to the reader at the beginning of the story, when the characters are still introduced it appeares to be important.

I don't think that Bran will be one of the three but probably he even so will be able to controll one of the dragons. His power is still growing.

If Jon really is part Targ it might enabel him to ride and controll one of the dragons. The same as the Szak blood enables the Stark kids to bind with the direwolves. This theory would mean that there has to be a third Targ. That's if only Targs are able to team up with dragons.

[YOSSARIAN]

Arya cannot be one of the heads...because of a new theory I'm working on. I can't get in into yet because I don't have all the info I need to back it up-but it sets Arya against the Targs and possibly Jon.

[Boaz]

Originally Posted by JDP

Robb willed the Crown to Jon in the event of his death

You don't know this to be true! This has not been confirmed! I am a stickler for details! There will be no conjectural conclusions from unsubstantiated rumors on my watch... unless I personally make them... then it's okay.

The following bears the official Boaz stamp of nonsensical approval.

In ACOK, during the second or third Bran chapter, Meera and Jojen come to a great feast at Winterfell. They swear their allegiance to House Stark with the following words.

"To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater," they said together. "Hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you."
"I swear it by earth and water," said the boy in green.
"I swear it by bronze and iron," his sister said.
"We swear it by ice and fire," they finished together.
Bran groped for words. Was he supposed to swear something back to them? Their oath was not one he had been taught.

Meera and Jojen sound like the Wonder Twins. "Form of a gorilla!" "Shape of a giant icicle!" I think the above passage proves that the title ASOIAF is all about the Reed kids. There will be three heads of the dragon... Bran, Meera, and Jojen. They swore it by ice and fire!

Seriously, I read this today and I was floored. I thought about starting a new thread... but since this is the current Jon thread I thought I'd post here.

Howland Reed's children swore by ice and fire. Why? Everyone thinks the Crannogmen are weird so they don't take notice of the oath. But Bran's thought regarding the vow was Their oath was not one he had been taught. Bran had never heard this oath... this means he had heard and been taught the oaths of other houses, like the Boltons, the Karstarks, the Umbers, etc. Ser Roderick and Maester Luwin are shown to be highly conscientious and thorough in counseling and educating Bran, yet they somehow overlooked this one thing. Maester Luwin admits that he "had not thought to see them" in Winterfell. But I got the feeling from the chapter that neither Luwin nor Roderick were not prepared for the Reeds nor their oath.

I think Howland directed his children to speak in unison (this way neither would forget the words on the long journey to Winterfell) We swear it by ice and fire as a secret message. From later ACOK and ASOS chapters it is clear that Howland Reed told his children many tales of his younger days, especially his adventures among the Starks. Howland knew whatever secret Eddard kept for Lyanna... of course I assume the secret is 1) that Jon is Lyanna's son by Rhaegar and 2) that Rhaegar and Lyanna were legally married before Jon was born and 3) that Lyanna and Rhaegar believed in their hearts that Jon was the culmination of Ice and Fire, i.e. the Prince that was promised (TPTWP) aka Azor Ahai reborn.

I assume that Howland knew of Ned's death when he sent his children off to Winterfell. I think that upon hearing of Ned's death (Ned's dead, baby. Ned's dead.), Howland knew that he needed to get in touch with Ned's contingency plan for Jon. The words We swear it by ice and fire might be the activating password that the Reeds are in on Ned's plan. Mayhaps Ned left instructions for an agent to open an sealed paper or do a specific action upon hearing the password.

I'm stringing this out trying to explain my thinking and to get you to buy into the idea... here it is.

We swear it by ice and fire lets Maester Luwin know that Howland is the executor of Ned's secret plan. Luwin opens a sealed note that Ned left for him at Lyanna's tomb. The note tells Luwin to send word to Benjen to talk to Jon. Benjen knows Ned's secret, but Benjen is missing and presumed dead. So Luwin is in a quandary about what to do... So Luwin sends a message to Aemon to tell Benjen to enact Ned's plan. Aemon does not know the secret so he leaves a message with Jon to give to Benjen. This means Jon holds an unknowable message about himself that only Benjen (or Howland) can reveal.

This is all complete, total, and unsubstantiated speculation based on...
"We swear it by ice and fire," they finished together.
Bran groped for words. Was he supposed to swear something back to them? Their oath was not one he had been taught.

Why did Meera and Jojen swear by ice and fire? They also swore by earth and water, bronze and iron. I'd expect to find earth and water in abundance around Greywater Watch. So the Reeds swore by their characteristics of their homeland. Remember Robb's crown was made of bronze and iron, i.e. the metals of the North and of Winter. The Reeds swore by the characteristics of the Stark's homeland. Ice and Fire are the components of TPTWP. The Reeds swore by Jon, i.e. their hope.

[Tysha]

Wow Boaz, your post are very interesting though they reminds me of husband-wife conversations like:
H: It's a nice pink dress.
W: Pink? It's not PINK! It's peach-orange! Do you think I look pink in this dress? Like Miss Piggie?! Do you think I'm a big fat pig?! That's it, I'm going to my mother!


I'm still convinced that Jon is one of the heads (and I still think they are-Dany, Jon and (ex-baby)Aegon wherever he is).
I believe that prophecies have a great power, you have a House of Undying prophecies: about baby Aegon (suggesting he is alive) and "A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness " - Blue flower - winter rose in a wall of ice - Jon who will feel the air with sweetness for Dany... (A bit gay for Jon but still...)
Who is a better head of the dragon than Rhaegar's own son?

About Jon and Arya - It's not like GRRM at all (I hope), I think Jon would never think of Arya in that way.

ras'matroi - all those things about Tyrion suggest that he is the one who fits a very important job - Dragon trainer (Dany desperately needs one and soon)

[Aegon the Unworthy]

I think maybe Tysha that the line about Jon (blue flower, wall of ice, sweetness) is more like describing the fact that he is in full "bloom" as it were at a time when the Others are descending upon the north.

Ive always assumed that Ned counselled his two elder "progeny" equally. With Robb being an undeniable master of battle beyond his years, I assume Jon is similar. It just occured to me that Robb was a foreshadowing of Jon. He is the harbinger of what Jon can be. Their arcs are suprisingly similar in terms of leading men, violating their oaths, and whatnot....just Jons education was harder and not quite as deadly.

The one omission on Danys resume is battle command and experience at waging a campaign. I think it will be Jon who swears fealty to Dany at some point in order to fulfill the greater part of his duty to Westeros and she in turn will be relying on him to lead her troops. They could even be allied like this without ever knowing Jons true parentage.

[Aegon the Unworthy]

You know Boaz, that was an excellent post. Full of good factual information....

I have a slightly different interpretation though....if you dont mind Id like to share it.


I think Reed was under the assumption the Ned passed on Jons parentage to his children. Witness Jojens incredulousness that Bran had never heard the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. This story was essentially the opening salvo to Roberts Rebellion and leads directly to Jons mysterious parentage. Ned avoided it for obvious reasons, his own hurts with Ashara and Rhaegars action in regards to the person I believe to have been Lyanna.

So I think yer right. I think there was a secret code in there. I just dont think anyone is around to hear it. Maester Luwin cant be a secret keeper in this one (least wise I dont think so) because Ned would have had to trust him at the beginning of his rule, essentially more than he trusted Cat or Roderick. I just cant see him placing Luwin over Roderick considering Roderick's son just died for this secret.

So they swear by the timelessness of the earth (earth and water), the old men the Stark were descended from (bronze and Iron), and the secrets they keep for the Starks (Fire and Ice)....pretty subtle wouldnt ya say.

So I dont think Ned told anyone. I think he kept Jon a secret, so when Howland sent his two whelps to Winterfell he assumed Neds descendants would know. But alas Ned was tight with his secrets and probably the only he told was the Old Gods and the weirwood.

What does this mean? Jojen and Meera could possibly know about Jons parentage. So theres a possible source for the big reveal.

[Boaz]

Mayhaps Meera and Jojen know who Jon is. That's definitely another way to look at fire and ice... no one was there to hear the message. Mayhaps Howland told his children, mayhaps Jojen saw it.

What if Howland named Jojen after Jon? What if Howland raised his kids with no other purpose than to help the Stark kids, especially Jon?

Mayhaps Jojen knows all about Jon...

[Tysha]

Originally Posted by Aegon the Unworthy

I think maybe Tysha that the line about Jon (blue flower, wall of ice, sweetness) is more like describing the fact that he is in full "bloom" as it were at a time when the Others are descending upon the north.

Yep, that better but you killed the romance!

Originally Posted by Aegon the Unworthy

Jojen and Meera could possibly know
about Jons parentage. So theres a possible source for the big reveal .

Oh I like this one!

Originally Posted by Boaz

mayhaps Jojen saw it.

And this one.

We swear it by ice and fire - never thought that's important.. only now I'm fully (?) understand what Boaz and Aegon mean. Speculations but very interesting and cool

[TK-421]

Yes, I do think that Jojen and Meera know about Jon. Know that you revealed that to us, there is a secret code but if Luwin knew, he would of told Bran. He knew Bran's sight was further than most normal men (3-eyed crow...) and could have kept the secret, especially as lord of Winterfell in Robb's absence.

One thing struck my from you post Boaz and I know it's also something that has been speculated elsewhere: That Lyanna and Rheagar were legally married. That would mean Jon is no true bastard after all. Apart from deflating my theory that due to the overaching theme about bastards and how they are treated and that a bastard (i.e. Jon) will sit on the Iron Throne, how could they have been legally married? The timelines don't fit since Rheager was already married to his Dornish princess and had two (as Aegon put it) whelps by her. Unless, he being already married was not a problem for marrying again and the fact this was a secret wedding since Rheagar did not want to dishonour Lyanna after he got her knocked up. But, I do not recall multiple marriages being a norm for Targs or the other noble houses.