The Conclusion of the Song:Inevitable Disappointment?

[Deblois]

Originally Posted by C Of K

Thanks for the welcome.

He's already killed several characters I previously thought were essential to the future of the story. GRRM keeps me guessing. That's why I keep coming back for more. Sometimes ignorance is bliss.

CofK
I know what you mean about him killing off characters who seemed essential. I wish I had a video of me reading the execution of Ned Stark for the first time. I was sure that it couldn't happen, didn't buy into it at all - even after it was done. I kept waiting for some cheesy dream sequence and for Ned to wake up later in a sweat. I couldn't believe he would off such a seemingly integral character - there was so much more Ned had to do! I read on a bit more guarded after that. By the time I got to the Red Wedding.....

Point is, who knows who will be standing by the time we get to the end of the saga.

[C Of K]

You said it!

The Red Wedding... It was -- it was super BOMB badd.

I can't believe some of the stuff GRRM gets away with. He's killing all my heroes.

[Boaz]

Originally Posted by C Of K

Boaz, I've read some of your other posts. You seem to able to keep track of many of the smaller, seemingly insignificant, details of the stories with ease.

Flattery will get you everywhere. I must say that almost all of my observations are not original. Others put their gray matter hard to work and developed the insights and theories posted here. I just happen to be fairly vocal.

I'll admit that last year while I was rereading ASOIAF, I had this fantastic concept pop into my brain. I immediately ran to the computer and posted my wonderful insight into the story. Ten minutes later someone posted something to the effect of "Boaz, sorry but that's not new. There's already a thread about this topic. In fact, you posted your thoughts on it!" I did not remember reading about that topic, but it was in there in black and white. That was embarrassing.

TK, I take it all in stride. <Knocks on wood.> If you ever happen to come to Denver and especially if the Senators happen to be in town, then we should go get a few beers and watch the game.

Anyway... to stay on topic... Reading ASOIAF, I get a different feeling than some other fiction. David Eddings' Belgariad, Raymond Feist's Krondor books after A Darkness At Sethanon, and all of the Dragonlance books all felt open-ended to me. By open ended, I mean I never felt the author had a precise idea of how much action and how many plot lines would be involved before the conclusion of the tale. I read Feist's stuff in college and I liked it very much, but after the original story it felt like any time he had an idea for a story he just plunked it into Krondor regardless whether that was the world in which it belonged or not.

Many authors also start throwing in back story during the third and fourth books in a five book series, e.g. Edding's Belgariad. Authors can choose to reveal information in a series when they choose, but getting to know a character from his/her point of view for three books and then finding out powerful motivations seems at best untimely and at worst just made up on the spot to flesh out the character. In my opinion, GRRM has not done this. The story about Maggy and Cersei at first seemed like Martin was just throwing it in, until I realized that I'd known Cersei for three books but never seen things from her POV. Perhaps, one could say that Jaime's feelings about his father and mother were late in being shown... but I'd say that his father's murder brought these feelings and memories up and still they were mostly relegated to dreams.

The gist of what I'm saying is that ASOIAF has had a very cohesive feel to it from the beginning. I assume that this is more than just luck on GRRM's part. I think he's planned this story meticulously. Many author's try to backdoor prophecy into their stories. Martin has put up a large amount of prophecy and foreshadowing up front. The only backdooring has been the Valonqar prophecy in Cersei's POV, but again that's explained by the fact that we never had a Cersei POV up until AFFC... I think it's good timing. ASOIAF does not feel open ended to me. It feels directed and focused.

[Florian the Fool]

Originally Posted by Boaz

The gist of what I'm saying is that ASOIAF has had a very cohesive feel to it from the beginning. I assume that this is more than just luck on GRRM's part. I think he's planned this story meticulously. Many author's try to backdoor prophecy into their stories. Martin has put up a large amount of prophecy and foreshadowing up front. The only backdooring has been the Valonqar prophecy in Cersei's POV, but again that's explained by the fact that we never had a Cersei POV up until AFFC... I think it's good timing. ASOIAF does not feel open ended to me. It feels directed and focused.

Sorry to take the wind out of your sails, Boaz, but Raven will do it to you anyway, and it's so rare to get the opportunity to beat him to it.

I may be teaching my gran to suck eggs here, but I think this is relevant to your point. I have no doubt that if it isn't, I'll soon be told.

I was lucky enough to get to a talk/signing with GRRM on his FFC tour, and someone asked more or less this exact question. His answer is one I've seen him give in a few other places. He divides authors into architects and gardeners.

Architects meticulously plan their books, creating detailed blueprints of every part of the story, chapter by chapter breakdowns so they know exactly what is happening, and what is going to happen. Then they fill out the rigid outline with prose, and build their novel.

Gardeners have a seed of an idea, and allow it to organically grow, exploring characters and their motivations by placing them in particular situations and seeing what they do (e.g. "I wonder what this character would do if I have him discovered cavorting with his twin sister by a small child...Good God, he's pushed him out of the window!!")

GRRM is very much of the second type. The first chapter came to him in a flash of inspiration while he was working on some other (now lost) novel, and he planted it in his fertile imagination to see what it would grow into.

From what I can gather, I think he had a fairly strong (but not immovable) idea of what the fate of the major characters was going to be at the end of the story (The Stark kids, Dany, Tyrion), but everything else was open-ended. For instance, I doubt characters like Brienne and Davos had even occured to him when he started out and I doubt he's decided their final destination even now.

He knows who's going to win the war with the Others, of course, but then so do we, don't we?

Also, if ASoIF was as meticuously planned as you suggest, it wouldn't have taken him seven years to write FFC.

Of course, the fact that it all appears to cohesive and structured rather than improvised just makes the achievement all the more impressive.

Does this answer your point, or should I return to lurking and keep my foolish opinions to myself....

[the smiling weirwood]

Originally Posted by Florian the Fool

I may be teaching my gran to suck eggs here, but I think this is relevant to your point.

I don't think teaching your grandmother to suck eggs is relevant at all. In fact, I question your entire post if you use such logic to justify your responses.

[TK-421]

Originally Posted by Florian the Fool

He knows who's going to win the war with the Others, of course, but then so do we, don't we?

Also, if ASoIF was as meticuously planned as you suggest, it wouldn't have taken him seven years to write FFC.

Well, please enlighten us on the first point.

And on the second point, I don't think this is a very good arguement. JK Rowling also knew how it would all end and she also took a while to write that series.

[Florian the Fool]

On the first point, I'm going out on a limb and assuming that the Good Guys will win. Has there ever been an epic fantasy where the Bad Guys have won?

On the second point, Rowling did indeed know how the series was going to end, but I don't know to what extent the stuff in between the beginning and the end was planned, and how much was discovered during the writing process. She may have found a number of diversions were necessary to get to her destination.

My argument is only that had the story of ASoIF been as meticulously plotted as Boaz was suggesting, GRRM wouldn't have given up after two years (or however long it was) on volume four and started again from scratch with a new plot structure. To stretch the analogy past breaking point, an architect doesn't change to a new style halfway through building his..err...building, but a gardener might drastically prune his...err...shrub (?) because he doesn't like the shape it's growing into.

I've just read that last paragraph over, and I think I have to go and lie down now.

[Trey Greyjoy]

GRRM has himself said that the ending will be bittersweet. Im envisioning an overall "win" by the "goodguys", but at a hefty price.
I also expect some measures of "justice" will not be served in the finale.

[Boaz]

Florian, thanks. That's the feedback I am looking for. Please go ahead and take all the wind out of my sails. It seems that every time I get going full of confidence that I need to learn to slow down and be humble.

The broad characterizations of gardeners and architects are easily understandable. Yet, all analogies have a limit, so I must point out that GRRM is not planting unknown seeds... I mean he's not expecting an acorn to become a cornstalk. That's not a crack at you... I'm not a writer, I'm just a self-appointed critic. It's very difficult to fathom that Martin does not have a concrete grasp on the ending... I suspect that even if he told me face to face that I would not believe him.

Thanks again. Perhaps Raven will still stop in to enlighten me further.

[Culhwch]

Originally Posted by Florian the Fool

On the first point, I'm going out on a limb and assuming that the Good Guys will win. Has there ever been an epic fantasy where the Bad Guys have won?

Yes, but has there ever been another series were the 'good guys' and the 'bad guys' were so easy to confuse, and so hard to pin down?

[Florian the Fool]

Originally Posted by Culhwch

Yes, but has there ever been another series were the 'good guys' and the 'bad guys' were so easy to confuse, and so hard to pin down?

Excellent point, and that very confusion is one of the things that makes this series such a standout. But it seems to me that the blurred distinction between the Good Guys and Bad Guys exists only amongst the people of Westeros. There's no indication that any human is considering siding with the Others, or that some of the Others are having trouble with their consciences about the invasion of the worlds of men (I suppose there is Coldhands, but he isn't an Other, he seems to be a wight who has somehow maintained a sense of self and escaped full enslavement to their will).

So taking the Bad Guys to be the Others, and the Good Guys to be whoever is fighting the Others, I'm pretty sure the Good Guys will prove victorious, otherwise the ending will not just be bittersweet but downright depressing. Although, as TG says, that victory will not be without considerable sacrifice, the extent of which remains unknown.

Boaz, I take your point about acorns not growing into cornstalks, but to me this means that when GRRM got to work on the first chapter, he wasn't expecting it to grow into a murder mystery, or a saga about a plucky East End lass finding love amongst the rubble of the Blitz. He knew he would be writing a multi-volume epic fantasy (although even he didn't know just how multi-volume - it was originally supposed to be in three volumes).

[Rahl Windsong]

In order to be able to defeat the Others, I think most or all will have to be on the side of the "living" orvictory will not be possible. At the end I see Danny and her dragons standing ready to defend the wall with all the might of Westeros to command in victory or utter defeat. The Starks may have roused their own dragon(s) by then as well. Tyrion will be a general in Danny's army and she will marry Jon Snow and live happily ever after!

Anyway thats how I see it, I hope George has a better view and surprises me like he has so far!

[Weasel Soup]

Will the dragons necessarily be the key to defeating the others?

Have been thinking about this lately, I was under the belief that the dragons first came to westeros with the targaryen's with aegon the conquerer. At the time of winters first defeat and the building of the wall was it just the first men and children of the forest?

[Aegon the Unworthy]

First off, I would so read a book about a plucky east end lass who found love in the rubble of the blitz...if it was written by Martin. He would probably kill of the plucky lass but then bring her back as some sort of undead through her sheer plucky will and the power of love only to find her true love was killed a half hour before she came back. Now she must find a way to make him an undead like her by worshipping elder gods of doom who she plans on betraying at the ritual to bring her lover back......what an excellent story that would be.

So anyhow....on to the germane part of the post....

Originally Posted by Weasel Soup

Will the dragons necessarily be the key to defeating the others?

I think Weasel (and this is just my completely uninformed opinion/speculation....we'll call it my opinulation)....the difference between then and now is the Children are weaker because magic is coming back slowly. The Others rely on certain element of muscle and as such are coming to power faster than the children....much much faster. Also the strength of the First Men is scattered. So I think that the Stark children coming of age and the dragons returning will be vital to the deeat of the other.

Once again....all just speculinion.

[Boaz]

Florian, thanks for the input. My interest in GRRM's methods probably stem from analyzing my methods of song writing. I'm no Lieber/Stoller, Lennon/McCartney, nor Holland/Dozier/Holland and I've never been trained formally in music, but I enjoy the creative process of music and lyrics.

I usually have thoughts brewing and stewing for weeks and months before I grasp a few definite words or phrases that mean exactly what I feel. Then I start writing, just writing out what I want to say. Sometimes the rhymes start right away and sometimes not. I try to nail the opening lines for each verse and the main line of the chorus and then go back in and fill out the rest. I tend to stay with strong themes throughout. Then I work on the melody that I've been thinking about. From what I've read, that's opposite of most famous/popular composers... they get the tune first, then they get the words.

Sorry to bore you. Anyway my song writing style seems more rigid than GRRM's style. So I guess I'm projecting my views onto him... figure out the whole, nail down the major details and segues, then flesh it out. Hmmm, it's hard to not think of the song/story as a construct... it's difficult to see it as a living thing.

Originally Posted by Aegon the Unworthy

opinulation... speculinion.

You kill me.