Need help please

[Crymsun]

I am having trouble finding a fantasy list of correct titles and definitions for example: UrLord was a title the Land gave to Thomas Covenant. Lord or High Lord is commonly used for Council members of those who govern/rule their land. Is it acceptable or common to name a female fantasy character as Lord or is there a female alternative to Lord (not Lady)? P.s. What is the definition for mLord? Hoping I am in the right place - cheers

[The Ace]

MLord, or m'lord ("Also milord,") is an abbreviation of, "My lord," used traditionally from a subject to his feudal overlord (In this case, the lord's actual title is immatireal). Often, "Your Honour," is used for the same purpose. There is no reason why a woman, if she is the eldest and has no brothers, cannot become a Lady in her own right on the death of her father (Although practically a suitable husband would have been found for her), the widow of a noble would have the title, "Dowager," often added i.e. Lady Dowager, Dowager Duchess, Dowager Countess, etc. as the widow of a King would be the Queen Mother.

Although kings are regarded these days as Majestic, in the past, they were often Gracious or even High and a Prince could rule a principality in his own right (only larger countries merited Kings) like modern Wales which has never been ruled by a King but always a Prince (even before the English royal family nicked the title).

Although there are technical differences between various noble ranks, Kings gave out titles (and the lands to go with them) as rewards of loyalty and to anyone outside court circles the distinctions would be largely meaningless.

However, the precedence is as follows (female in brackets);
Emperor (Empress) Your Imperial Majesty
High King (very rare) (Queen) Your Grace/Majesty
King (Queen) as above, also "My Leige."
Prince (Princess) Your Higness
Duke (Duchess) Your Grace
Earl/Count (synonyms, any court has one or the other) (Countess)My Lord
Baron (Baroness) My Lord/My Lady
Baronet. This title cannot be inherited and has no female equivalent.His wife is "My Lady."
Knight (Lady) Sir John etc, and Lady Jane etc.

A woman can hold any of these titles by right of birth except for "Baronet," or Knight, although she would be expected to take a husband to ensure the succession. Of course, she can also take the female equivalent of any title by marrying its holder.

[Teresa Edgerton]

Actually, Baronets do pass on the title to their male descendants, which is what distinguishes them from knights. (The title being "Sir.") But Baronets are relatively recent -- James I invented them -- so one could easily dispense with them in a quasi-medieval setting. In the real world it is rare for a woman to hold any title under that of Princess in her own right, and even rarer for her to do so by inheritance. (In the old days, it usually came about because of an ... ah, intimate connection with the King. Henry VIII made Anne Boleyn a Marchioness before he married her.) The exception being women knights, who are relatively common, at least these days. Their title is Dame.

High King is, for all intents and purposes, the equivalent of Emperor. There are also Grand Dukes and Grand Duchesses, but these titles are more or less the equivalent of Prince and Princess, particularly in Imperial families. (The children of the Tsar of Russia were Grand-Dukes and Grand-Duchesses. Tsar -- or Czar -- is another word for Emperor.) And Ace has left out Marquises and Marchionesses, who come in between the Dukes and Earls, and Viscounts and Viscountesses, who come in between the Earls and Barons. Then there are the courtesy titles for the children of nobles, where it gets really complicated, and I think a lot of that is relatively modern anyway.


Of course, if you are making up the world and the social structure you can call anybody anything you want, but sticking with the familiar titles and their ordinary precedence has the advantage of saving you a lot of explanations.

[The Ace]

Ummm, TE, Robert I's mother was Countess of Carrick after the death of her father. She married the Earl of Annandale with royal permission and the title was passed on to the future King to keep him out of trouble. The convention was not unknown in Scotland although it meant that many titles passed to different families.
Thanks for the pointers, I'd forgotten about the dames.

[Crymsun]

Thanks for the info. Interesting stuff. I am interested more in the 'made up worlds' and I have noticed that titles used for scorcerers, magicians, Lords etc in fantasy books seem to be the same from one book to the next, so I thought that maybe there might be a standard protocol to meet when writing fantasy. Do you know if there is a dictionary in print of titles,terms and definitions specifically catering for our worlds of magic?

[timelord4]

Also Crymsun. A prince-in-waiting, or a prince who will ascend to the throne can be called a Royal Prince, hence, His Royal Highness.

[Teresa Edgerton]

I knew that the practice was more common in Scotland than in other countries, Ace, but still relatively uncommon as I said, yes?

timelord, any Prince is a Royal Highness -- unless he's an Imperial Highness. I think you mean Crown Prince. But you remind me of something that I had forgotten: at one point, the eldest daughter of the King of England had the title Lady Royal, to distinguish her from the other Princesses.

And in some countries, everyone in the family seems to hold the title -- Baron, Baroness, whatever -- although only, I believe, as a sort of courtesy title, so that only the eldest son passes it on to his children.

Crymsun, there's really no reason for a fantasy protocol for titles. If people want to go with something familiar there is always the real thing (or a simplified version of the real thing, which as you can see is dizzyingly complex); if that doesn't fit, then somebody else's pre-made system is unlikely to work either. And if everyone was doing the exact same thing, the result would probably be boringly generic.

[Interference]

You're going to kill me for this, but is is allowable to invent titles in fantasy - not my home genre, as you'll probably guess.

Cos if it's allowed, why not have a Lord High Ku and an Iambic Imperator? Or a jester known as The Master Card?

I'll get my coat ...

[Dragonlady]

Well, in fantasy you can use different hierarchies and social structures as well as different languages from the real world, so I don't see why not!

[JonCG]

Originally Posted by Crymsun

Thanks for the info. Interesting stuff. I am interested more in the 'made up worlds' and I have noticed that titles used for scorcerers, magicians, Lords etc in fantasy books seem to be the same from one book to the next, so I thought that maybe there might be a standard protocol to meet when writing fantasy. Do you know if there is a dictionary in print of titles,terms and definitions specifically catering for our worlds of magic?

The book you are after is A Tough Guide to Fantasyland (Gollancz) by Diana Wynne Jones.

[lin robinson]

The idea of fantasy, I would think, is that you can pretty much make up anything you please.