Classifications

[solve]

Hey John and assembled wise folks,

I'm terribly confused about classifications and would value any sage advice.

I'm a couple of months away from a send-outable ms.
My beta-readers have picked up on a scene in my opening chapter: I make sexual connotations, and my beta-readers fear that this will reduce my marketable appeal, not least to an agent.

On the one hand, I'm clear in my mind that my audience is Philip Pullman's audience (His Dark Materials). To this end, I've been using this trilogy as a type of benchmark.
On the other hand, I'm unclear what constitutes this audience:
The three His Dark Materials are classified as children's novels (certainly, he picked up the Guardian Children's Fiction Prize for Northern Lights, and The Amber Spyglass was the first children's book to win the Whitbread Book of the Year).
In The Subtle Knife, for example, Pullman includes a torture scene in which a witch is having her fingers snapped.
Furthermore, the sexual undertones in the scene between Mrs Coulter and Sir Charles are inescapable: Charles moans in ecstasy as Mrs Coulter's daemon strokes Charles' snake daemon, and so forth.

I introduce a male character and a female character. They get their jollies from word games, and the female pulls a staff between her thighs, groaning in pleasure. Nothing hardcore, and no use of sexual words or of profanities. Beyond this, I use themed keywords that sit out of context and, as such, are effective means of hitting the reader subconsciously.
But would inclusion of such a scene really lose me a large portion of a potential audience?
Do children really read Pullman's His Dark Materials novels?
Are there hard-and-fast guidelines used to determine classifications?

Many thanks. I hope you can help me!
(With apologies if this topic has already been discussed elsewhere.)

[roddglenn]

If your target audience is children it may still put some editors off. I'm not saying that you should take it out or tone it down further, but you should be aware that it 'may' affect decisions. The fact of the matter is that it is a bit of a grey area, so for a first book you need to tread carefully. Established writers can bend or break some of the rules, but new writers should be a lot more careful.

Whatever you decide, good luck with it.

[solve]

Thank you roddglenn, very much appreciated.

I've never considered that I am writing for children any more than I would consider that Pullman wrote his HDM trilogy for children. And therein lies my first problem: Who are these children? I'm quite sure that the idea of reading, say, Northern Lights would not appeal to many under tens: moreover, I know of several parents who have tried reading Northern Lights to their children, and have struck a blank. My son is seven and he's read every Roald Dahl children's book that I know; there is no comparison between, say, James and the Giant Peach and Northern Lights: they are, pardon the pun, poles apart, in subject matter, language, and tone.

I imagine that your point about treading carefully with a first novel is a very valid one. Problem number two: What are the rules? Problem number three: I feel that I would lose my edge if I toned down everything (or even anything) in my novel.

Another yardstick I use is Hayao Miyazaki's Spirited Away. My son and I both adore this movie (presumably for different reasons ). It features a stink spirit that engulfs the protag in unimaginable excretions, a spirit that devours people and projectile vomits, and an evil witch who is able to transform and mutilate others by thought alone, and these are my son's favourite parts!
(Actually, mine too, so we probably do like the movie for the same reasons after all ).
In this way, can we surmise that the tone plays an important role in influencing an agent? Can we push the boundaries provided that we are tongue-in-cheek, or light-hearted?

All this said, of course, if the simple removal of the staff-between-the-legs were to make such an enormous difference to an agent's decision, I would remove it without hesitation: it is the probably the most contentious moment in the ms.

[roddglenn]

I hear what you're saying. Spirited Away I think is aimed more at the teenage market than the child market and it that's the market you want to go for then the staff scene will probably be ok.

Tone is very important and you can get away with more if you have the right tone.

What are the rules? Well, there's written ones and many unwritten ones. Rules such as the 80,000-120,000 word count - new writers HAVE to stick to this guide pretty much no matter what, but established writers can bust that rule wide open. Violence to children and animals is still heavily frowned upon, but again established writers can bend these. My agent is having trouble placing my second novel because there is a couple of scenes of violence towards both children and animals in it. I'm sticking to my guns on it because it is important to the story.

So they're just a couple of the rules - there's loads more that you pick up along the way.

[silveroxide]

It's impossible to judge the use of sexual connotations in your writing without reading it, but I'd point out that His Dark Materials is very atypical for a children's book, if it is one at all. Not many other children's books feature deicide.

I'd look at the context of the parts that you are worried about and think about whether it contributes to the story or is there just for its own sake. Violence or sex that's just there for shock value is pretty obvious and detracts for the writing, while the same type of content that is integral to the story or character always gets my approval (if only for courage on the part of the writer). To take the example of HDM again, when I read Northern Lights and Subtle Knife I must have been about 11-12, and those books do contain more violence than most other books I had read at that time, but it never put me off the books because they were well integrated to the story and added to it.

[Azure]

Hmm if it's Dark Materials Pullman rather than his other stuff then surely young adult is better that children? It gives the sense of a slightly more mature reader.

As with using anime as a yardstick unless it's aimed at the anime fan group then don't the Japanese have very different ideas about what is suitable for each age group. Though we might say Spirited Away is for older children I don't think it was intended that way, the Japanese grow up on stories of the spirits like that. Princess Mononoke was his teen movie. =3

[lin robinson]

Miyazaki has nothing to do with "anime". The man is a genius filmmaker, a hand-crafter of gorgeously realized art. There is no comparison between what he does and the cramped conventions or anime.

Ichiro's Journey is for anybody of any age as are all of his fantasy films. He also did some "animated reality" stuff dealing with high school angst, but his star shines best in all those bizarro spirit, victorian tech, skyship films.

[Azure]

Whilst it's hard to compare Miyazaki with anyone else, he is a Japanese film maker making films in Japan the point about culture still stands. Just be a bit careful when using foriegn materials as an age reference point unless you're sure that the audience for a partiular film/book is really the one you are aiming for.

[Anthony G Williams]

I understand that Pullman did not write his trilogy for children - they just happened to feature young protagonists. But he was told to market them as children's/YA fiction as they would stand more chance of success.

[John Jarrold]

I'd certainly suggest that you look at other fantasy novels out there in the YA market, books by authors who have come to prominence in the last few years, since those are the authors a new writer will be compared with by publishers' editors...

[solve]

Ah, now that would make sense Anthony. It's something I've encountered time and time again: because I employ a child protag, it is assumed that I am writing for children. Hence, when I introduce the mildest trace of sexual behaviour, my beta-readers quail. It's reached the point where I have to take this consistent response seriously and reassess my goals as they are perceived by others.
I'm of the opinion that if, by amending a few minor characteristics, I could magnify my appeal to an agent, I would do this without regret. It would seem to me to be foolish not to.
I just don't know if this is actually the case or not though; I feel that there are plenty of rules with which I am unfamiliar and that worries me. After all, there is no shortage of material geared to help us improve the quality of our writing and our story-telling, but how might we peek into the minds of those who are best-placed to help us into the bookstores? Where is this list of do's and don't's that pertain to classifications?
Which is, I'm sure, why I came to John (who I know is a respected fellow and who is kind enough to share these insider tips), and to the other experienced folks who inhabit these forums.
This leads me to a related question:
If I submit my ms and it contains only a few elements that would reduce its potential audience (and, hence, sales figures), would an agent remain interested on the proviso that these elements would be removed/replaced? (Of course, this makes the vast assumption that the writing and story are of 'special' quality in the first instance .)
Sincere thanks to all who have responded. I've got lots to consider.

N.B. In writing this, I crossed over with your response John.
I'll be sure to do this. I am up on many of the authors mentioned in these forums, but I do tend to read across genres a lot. Maybe I'd be best served by focusing ...
Thanks John.

[John Jarrold]

You're dead right: focus. In general terms, publishers have to tell the bookselling chains which genre a new writer is working in, and if they fall between two stools the chain will be far less likely to stock them, unless their writing is FABULOUS. Remember that SF and Fantasy are separate genres, as far as the bok trade is concerned.

On agents and publishers asking for revisions. I saw thirty submissions a week for fifteen years as an editor, and only asked to see work again if it was revised about half-a-dozen times over those years. Usually, the writing is what counts - other matters can be worked on later, if that basic aspect is truly wonderful.

And unless an editor says 'I want to see this again if you work on...' they don't want to see it again. They may say 'I enjoyed it...', or 'Your writing shows promise...' but that doesn't mean they want to see another version unless they specifically say so. Of course, in some cases (but not many) they'll say 'I would like to see the next novel you write...' But again, that doesn't mean another version of THIS novel.

[solve]

Thank you John.

I always feel very humble, almost embarrassed, when submitting to an agent. In three years, I have submitted three manuscripts to a total of four carefully-selected agents. However, I see this as a necessity, and a great indication of where I'm at with my writing.
My focus has always been on improving my writing: I've figured that if I can imagine a captivating story, and then tell that story well, everything else will take care of itself.
I can see that I should be giving more consideration to the genre in and of itself, and of current trends.

On a related note, I'm considering using a consultancy this time around, probably The Literary Consultancy (please delete if it's poor etiquette mentioning them here): paying for a professional critique in other words.
Is this something you would recommend/approve of?

Thanks again John.

[John Jarrold]

It's something some authors definitely want to do, while others prefer to rely on their own thoughts, so make sure you research them (I haven't specifically heard of them) and are satisfied with what you find out, and be positive that you're happy to spend the money.

Good luck!

[lin robinson]

In case this bookselling thing isn't depressing enough, I'd like to recap a thread from a screenwriting forum I participate in.

It was called Great Script Vs. Right Script and made a point that is pretty irrefutable, though a lot of writers hate it, especially those who come out of school-type experience where they have been "taught" their attitudes.

The concept is, selling a script isn't a matter of creating the greatest writing in history. It's a matter of a script coming onto somebody's desk that fills their needs. In the film world, a script they know they can get financing for. In books, something their experience tells them there is a market for.

This isn't an apologia for junk, but it explains why junk gets made and published. It isn't a suggestion to write less well than you're capable, but it explains why doing so is no guarantee of success.

This is not some unique writing chimera. It's the same in almost everything. A company doesn't hire the guy with the most impressive resume, they hire the guy who's best for the job, the guy they like.

Faculty positions don't go to the most excellent applicant, they go to those who most suit the nature, politics, and even fashion or, who knows, sexual orientation of the school.

It's not a reason not to do your best, but it's a reason not to take it personally when your masterpiece isn't the same shape as the holes in the pegboard.