Swearing in books

[Anthony G Williams]

Originally Posted by j. d. worthington

Which goes back to what I was saying earlier: You want to be realistic (or, more precisely, to have verisimilitude) with your writing, so as not avoid such words where they fit; but, as with any other sort of writing -- say, for example, someone who tends to have florid speech, or who uses very simple terms, or a poetic idiom -- you want to use it so that it actually has the impact it's intended to have and not just become white noise (unless, of course, that's the intention ... which should very seldom be the case; say, if you're trying to sketch a character for whom such words are empty counters bereft of any meaning, just sounds they'd make the same way they would grunt or use some other non-word).

You mean as in typical conversation within the average group of ill-educated adolescent boys?

What intrigues me is that, over time, some words lose their rude meaning and become respectable, while other respectable words become tainted and rude by association. For an example of the first case, I was rather startled to hear a polite American girl declare that something "really sucks!". I doubt that she was aware of the origins in fellatio. On the other hand, words to do with bodily functions keep being "euphemised", so crapper (named after the man who invented the modern flushing WC) became lavatory, then toilet and (in the USA, at least) has become bathroom and finally restroom!

I have the impression that people were more direct and honest about such matters in the past. There was a street in Norwich (and similar ones elsewhere) which in medieval times was officially called Gropekunte Lane - I needn't spell out what ancient profession was practised there. And in Pompeii I gather that an erect penis, boldy displayed, was commonly used in advertising. So when people used ""rude" words in the past, they may not have been swearing, but were just being frank. We are much more prissy these days.

[j. d. worthington]

Originally Posted by Anthony G Williams

I have the impression that people were more direct and honest about such matters in the past. There was a street in Norwich (and similar ones elsewhere) which in medieval times was officially called Gropekunte Lane - I needn't spell out what ancient profession was practised there. And in Pompeii I gather that an erect penis, boldy displayed, was commonly used in advertising. So when people used ""rude" words in the past, they may not have been swearing, but were just being frank. We are much more prissy these days.

Oh, indeed. That was my point earlier... if you look at the writers of the Restoration period ... or even if you read Swift ... you'll see things that would simply be thought extremely vulgar by today's standards. Even in the 18th century, such was often the case. We're still dealing with a holdover of attitudes from Victorianism where this is concerned -- which may be why (to get to a statement made earlier) so few people know how to use such words effectively. The writers of those earlier periods used such words, certainly; but they used them with a vigour and sharply pointed wit they've lost in the modern age. So they were sometimes just being frank, and sometimes they were swearing... the meaning and impact depended on context.

As for the phallic symbol... well, Priapic figures were often included as part of household decorations, as a nod to fertility and potency (or a request for assurance of), among other things... and this was true of many places in Greece, as well as the Roman empire aside from Pompeii (though there the god's name was different):

Priapus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(A warning for those who might be offended by graphic depictions: there are some on this link.)

Again, this means (as noted earlier) that allowances must be made for our views being different; so if you want to get across the feeling for the time, you have to find an modern equivalent -- much like a translator must when going from one language to another (Dante, for instance, is notoriously difficult for this... the idioms are simply so different, that getting the original idea and a similar contemporary reaction across at the same time are often nigh impossible; one or the other must be relegated to footnotes....)

[Anastasia]

Originally Posted by Theed

Hello, first post here at the forums, though I am a long time reader.

I was curious to know people's position on swearing in books. Personally, I think it's acceptable and I don't mind it at all, if it seems real. I don't like it when those words are used just to use them, it doesn't seem natural. But, in my opinion, if the character would say it, then I don't have a problem with it at all.

I have swearing in the novel that I'm writing. It's there for one reason: because the characters themselves would say it. And it's not in abundance, either. But it is there.


Your thoughts?

A while back I wrote a short story for an amateur sci-fi/adventure website in which a character's leg got blown off. Then, as a result of this leg being blown off, the trench he was in was filled with slippery blood and his companions couldn't get him out of harm's way to save his life. Needless to say, the dialogue for this scene was filled with swearwords.

The scene was about soldiers, and my dad is an ex-soldier who assures me that people who get their limbs blown off don't say "Oh gosh, the blighters got my blasted leg!" Well, not outside the covers of a Jeeves novel. Still, the mods on this site felt my use of language was gratuitous and asked me to change it before posting.

My personal take on it is that swearing has to be appropriate to the context. If a guy has his leg blown off, he will probably swear. A gangster will probably swear. So will most soldiers (heard the expression "swear like a trooper"?). However, don't use swearing just because you think it sounds realistic, in a situation where there is no need - like all words in your writing, they have to serve a purpose. Don't put any words in you don't need - swear words included.

[Spectrum]

A question: What is the policy on swearing on this forum? Are there rules against it? (Because I've seen several people allude to the dreaded "F-word" in this thread, but no one has yet dared to write it.)

[chrispenycate]

Don't post anything you wouldn't want a thirteen year old to see (because there are a couple)
That holds not merely for language, but for excessively graphic descriptions, too.
And, while I admit that some thirteen-year olds are foul mouthed little…, one should not assume that this is the norm (or, for that matter, ours are the norm)

[Anastasia]

Originally Posted by chrispenycate

Don't post anything you wouldn't want a thirteen year old to see (because there are a couple)
That holds not merely for language, but for excessively graphic descriptions, too.
And, while I admit that some thirteen-year olds are foul mouthed little…, one should not assume that this is the norm (or, for that matter, ours are the norm)

My daughter is almost 13. She recently tried to justify watching Torchwood in her room on the grounds that she wouldn't see anything on it she couldn't see in the corridors of her school.

Well unless her school is over-run with man-eating, bisexual aliens, I somehow doubt it. Still, schools are pretty rough places these days. My daughter, bless her, thinks swearing is beneath her

[Culhwch]

Originally Posted by Spectrum

A question: What is the policy on swearing on this forum? Are there rules against it? (Because I've seen several people allude to the dreaded "F-word" in this thread, but no one has yet dared to write it.)

As per the forum rules, handily linked in the control bar at the top of the page:

3. Please moderate your language and avoid swearing and expletives. The only exception to this is written fiction posted for critique.

Even then, if you wish to post writing of a strong nature, please consider whether a general forum is going to be a suitable place for useful feedback.

[dustinzgirl]

Originally Posted by j. d. worthington

Oh, indeed. That was my point earlier... if you look at the writers of the Restoration period ... or even if you read Swift ... you'll see things that would simply be thought extremely vulgar by today's standards. Even in the 18th century, such was often the case. We're still dealing with a holdover of attitudes from Victorianism where this is concerned -- which may be why (to get to a statement made earlier) so few people know how to use such words effectively. The writers of those earlier periods used such words, certainly; but they used them with a vigour and sharply pointed wit they've lost in the modern age. So they were sometimes just being frank, and sometimes they were swearing... the meaning and impact depended on context.

I agree. All the cool cussing died with the Victorian Era, but then again, we got some way cool antiquities out of it.....man, I wish I could afford a good cranberry glass victorian era lamp--got an extra fifteen hundred frelling dollars I can have?



Now there is a made up cuss word that works well, frelling. I love it, its funny to say. I have no idea why.

My daughter tries to say FREAKING this to everything...I don't like that so much, its irksome and usually followed by the preteen eyeball roll and "whatever" which is the child version of F--- it.

[j. d. worthington]

Originally Posted by dustinzgirl

My daughter tries to say FREAKING this to everything...I don't like that so much, its irksome and usually followed by the preteen eyeball roll and "whatever" which is the child version of F--- it.

Yes, that one amuses me, because of the origins of the term... and the fact that so few either know it, or think that we old fogeys know it.... (Also because it was used for so long in popular literature, when "f***" wasn't allowed.....)

[tangaloomababe]

I dont see to much swearing in books, however I think that as in real life when faced with certain circumstances or situations there is a tendency or need to swear. The book I am reading at the moment though tends to have just a bit to much swearing, some of it not terribly appropriate. This tends to detract from the book somewhat .

[Anastasia]

Originally Posted by dustinzgirl

My daughter tries to say FREAKING this to everything...I don't like that so much, its irksome and usually followed by the preteen eyeball roll and "whatever" which is the child version of F--- it.

I have Irish relatives and I love "Fecking", as used in Father Ted. The only problem is, when I use it on American sites, they think I've made it up!

I agree, "What the frell?" is brilliant. I loved Farscape - well, up until the point when the two John's got seperated and then it got a bit silly.

[dustinzgirl]

Originally Posted by j. d. worthington

Yes, that one amuses me, because of the origins of the term... and the fact that so few either know it, or think that we old fogeys know it.... (Also because it was used for so long in popular literature, when "f***" wasn't allowed.....)

I know, its almost like they don't think we used those 'cuss' tricks as kids!

Originally Posted by Anastasia

I have Irish relatives and I love "Fecking", as used in Father Ted. The only problem is, when I use it on American sites, they think I've made it up!

I agree, "What the frell?" is brilliant. I loved Farscape - well, up until the point when the two John's got seperated and then it got a bit silly.

I loved that part of farscape. I'm odd like that! I also loved it more when scorpios was in john's head....those images and the way it was done was just sheer brilliance, although I think Im the only person who thinks so.

[Green]

I couldn't get into Farscape. It was like watching the muppet show, in space.

[dustinzgirl]

Originally Posted by Green

I couldn't get into Farscape. It was like watching the muppet show, in space.

Which is what made it the coolest show ever!

[Interference]

Originally Posted by Joel007

Consider your target audience...

I thought it deserved repeating.

Firefly used some pretty rough Chinese cusses. Father Ted got away with 'feck' because in the Irish language it's a legit word.

The Lone Ranger was calling his native American pal an idiot every time he called him Tonto. And unless my sources are wrong, Kimosabe was actually "que no sabe" which means "who knows nothing". They were a 19th century double-act, really!

It might be an idea, depending on your setting, to look for inspiration in other languages you characters might be familiar with.