Is there any point in continuing the Book Club?

[Connavar]

So does it live? I wonder cause i can prolly get this months book but only if the club lives on to the next months too.

No reason to start if this is last month.

[Culhwch]

Looks like it's the last month, I'm afraid.

[mosaix]

Originally Posted by Culhwch

Looks like the tribe has spoken.... And I certainly meant no ill feeling to be generated from this thread - I was just genuinely asking to see if there was any point in devoting time to this, not to seek excuses or reasons for a lack of participation. God knows I was 0-5 going into this month, for no better reasons than I couldn't get the book, or I just couldn't get into the book.

Culhwch - no ill feeling.

The structure of the club didn't seem to be defined. For instance was the January book meant to be read in January or discussed in January? I was put off to see that discussion starting almost as January began when I was nowhere near starting the book.

[Teresa Edgerton]

Originally Posted by mosaix

You seem to think that "only a small number of members are eager to read books by authors they don't already know or that haven't already been recommended by their friends." is the reason, yet when given a genuine reason by someone else reject it as an excuse.

For me, one month wasn't and isn't enough - good enough excuse?

But your reason doesn't apply to most of the months when few people have participated, so, no, I don't see that it's particularly applicable. It tells us why at least one person -- and by extension probably other people -- didn't participate in January, but not much else. What about the other months? What about the last Book Club where we were giving every book a three month lead time there at the end? I'm sure that your reason was good for you -- one month -- and I'm sure that it applied to some of our other members also -- that month. I don't discount it, but it still leaves us looking for the reasons why other people in other months didn't participate. Obviously, there has to be more than one explanation. I offered several possible explanations. I'm not advancing one as the one true explanation. It's sure to be a combination of factors, and most of them, I believe, quite out of our control.

You seem to think that I am attacking you. I'm not. (If I was, I would have called you on the mid-January thing, because I went back and looked at the thread and saw what you said about getting the book for Christmas. I didn't bring that up, because that would have made the discussion too personal.) The reason why I think that the explanations people have given for their own lack of participation are largely irrelevant is because they mostly come down to this: we didn't have the time or interest. And I don't see that changing. The time issue, especially, is a matter of outside factors, and that's something we can never control -- therefore, not useful to the discussion, except to the extent that it applies to the January book.

[jackokent]

I have to hold my hands up and say I was really pro this idea and then I didn't participate. I did actually read one of the books but by the time I'd got to the dicussions I couldn't think of anything origional to say about it.

I love the idea of a book club and would try to particiate in the next one but given my lack of involvement in Chronicles for a while I don't know if I actually would.

Well done to all who did participate however. Is this the end of it then or not?

[mosaix]

Originally Posted by Teresa Edgerton

The reason why I think that the explanations people have given for their own lack of participation are largely irrelevant is because they mostly come down to this: we didn't have the time or interest. And I don't see that changing. The time issue, especially, is a matter of outside factors, and that's something we can never control -- therefore, not useful to the discussion, except to the extent that it applies to the January book.

Teresa, the time issue is entirely relevant to the discussion. People have to weigh the time they have against the time allowed and the time allowed was chosen arbitrarily.

The time people have, as you say, is largely a matter of outside factors but the time allowed isn't.

[Teresa Edgerton]

Originally Posted by mosaix

Teresa, the time issue is entirely relevant to the discussion.

Logically, this would seem to be right. But the history of the Book Club indicates otherwise. Yes, for you (and probably for other people) the time issue was important in January. But with longer lead times we've been seeing less and less participation, and the same thing happened in the Book Club's previous incarnation; therefore, the demise of the Book Club can't be attributed to short lead times. Quite the opposite (although this is counter-intuitive), it seems to go the other way: with longer lead times people lose interest in participating. Or maybe people just lose interest anyway, the longer the Club goes on, and any correspondence with the lead times is coincidental. (I'm speaking in terms of the group, not the experience of one individual in one month.) If the facts lead you logically to another conclusion, then so be it.

Anyway, my main point is that the most common reason that people have given -- "I thought it was a good idea, but then I decided I didn't want to talk about the books after all" -- is unfixable.

[Lenny]

Anyway, my main point is that the most common reason that people have given -- "I thought it was a good idea, but then I decided I didn't want to talk about the books after all" -- is unfixable.

To be perfectly honest, methinks that it's less about not wanting to talk about the books, and more about not knowing what to talk about. I don't know about others, but I guess it will be the case for a few, but I find it difficult to start a discussion on something like a book. Yeah, it may sound daft - 500 pages of material from which to choose points from... but what do you choose? How do you go about choosing it?

I mentioned above the possibility that those who submit a book also submit a few points for discussion - if it does anything, it gives a few points for people to think on whilst they read, or once they've read, and they can then give their views. From there it's natural for a full discussion to launch itself into being. And there's the added bonus that with a few points to talk about already there, more people may be willing to join in.

Just my two pence.

[mosaix]

Originally Posted by Teresa Edgerton

Logically, this would seem to be right.

That's good enough for me.

[j. d. worthington]

Originally Posted by Lenny

To be perfectly honest, methinks that it's less about not wanting to talk about the books, and more about not knowing what to talk about. I don't know about others, but I guess it will be the case for a few, but I find it difficult to start a discussion on something like a book. Yeah, it may sound daft - 500 pages of material from which to choose points from... but what do you choose? How do you go about choosing it?

I mentioned above the possibility that those who submit a book also submit a few points for discussion - if it does anything, it gives a few points for people to think on whilst they read, or once they've read, and they can then give their views. From there it's natural for a full discussion to launch itself into being. And there's the added bonus that with a few points to talk about already there, more people may be willing to join in.

Just my two pence.

Well, I'm not sure even this would help, Lenny. There was an attempt to start up a Lovecraft discussion group, and people seemed very enthused. One story was discussed, a set of three others were proposed, again a lot of enthusiasm, and time allowed to read the short story... then someone actually threw out a line of discussion and so far there's been no response on that at all.

This has happened with book clubs I've been part of out here in the "real world", as well. Other things come up, people end up with less time than they thought, their enthusiasms wax and wane, sometimes they simply feel they've nothing particularly interesting to add to the discussion. Whatever the reason, it has just become increasingly difficult to maintain such a group once it begins....

[Parson]

I really, really, like the idea of an in depth discussion on a book. Which is why I had read Scar Night before January, and the Long Run before February so that I could have such a discussion. But such discussion never evolved. That is why my interest waned, but I would still be interested if there were such a discussion.

Would it be better to run a book club on a chapter by chapter basis? Say at the end of week 1 we will discuss the first 3 chapters of whatever, say David Weber's "Honor Harrington on Basklisk Station."

As you read consider the following questions:

What sources of tension do you see in Honor's life?

What role do you see Nimitiz playing?

Does Honor's growing up on a "heavy world" play a real part in her idea of discipline and respect on a star ship? ETC. ETC.

Then we could say that we would meet on July 12 to discuss our answers to these questions.

How do people feel about this?

[Culhwch]

I'm still not sure it would work, Parson. First off, it still relies on people reading a book they may not necessarily want to read - a huge sticking point, and probably the key reason this thing didn't work. Secondly, it would also rely on someone having read it to propose those questions. I like the idea of reading it all together - and in fact, that was what I was doing, starting at page one on day one of the month - but it's unrealistic to expect everyone to stick to such a pace.

[j. d. worthington]

However, Parson, I would suggest the possibility of perhaps starting a thread discussing such things, and see if others join in. While there are going to be a lot of books I won't be doing so (probaby the majority, with my being so swamped in reading I have to do for various things I'm working on, unfortunately), I would very much enjoy joining in on such discussions where I've read the book.

The main problem with this, however, is: how many people are going to be into in-depth discussions of any book? Myself, I love getting involved in such things, but from what I've seen, the majority of people prefer either very surface comments (like/dislike; so-and-so is a great/terrible writer, etc.) or focus on very narrow points (or what has come to be called the "mythos" of any particular series, etc. -- the nit-picking scholarship which certainly has its place and can be very enjoyable, but is often extremely esoteric -- and almost exclusively the province of those who are deep fans of a particular writer or type of story).

If you can get people interested, though, I'd like to see such a discussion, or series of discussions, evolve. It could make for some very good food for thought which could apply to reading other works as well....

[pyan]

Originally Posted by j. d. worthington

the nit-picking scholarship which certainly has its place and can be very enjoyable, but is often extremely esoteric -- and almost exclusively the province of those who are deep fans of a particular writer or type of story).

Anyone particular in mind there, j.d.?


The Tolkien Trivia thread is a good example of this kind of discussion: whereas anyone is more than welcome to join in, in practise only a couple of people do, because we like this deep, nit-picking kind of discussion/game, and most people don't.
Tolkien I can live with the best at - but I'd be reluctant to join in a esoteric discussion of 99% of other author's books, except on the superficial level, for fear of making a fool of myself, and because I really don't want to spoil my enjoyment of the book by taking it apart too much.

(Quite a common reaction of people who 'did' English Literature at school or Uni, I find! )

[j. d. worthington]

Originally Posted by pyan

Anyone particular in mind there, j.d.?

While Tolkien did come to mind, I was also thinking of myself and Lovecraft, for instance; or various people and King or Rowling; or numerous television series and their fans; etc.

Tolkien I can live with the best at - but I'd be reluctant to join in a esoteric discussion of 99% of other author's books, except on the superficial level, for fear of making a fool of myself, and because I really don't want to spoil my enjoyment of the book by taking it apart too much.

(Quite a common reaction of people who 'did' English Literature at school or Uni, I find! )

And I think that's the problem, really... a lot of it has been overdone with most of us, and not in a helpful way. This sort of discussion can actually lead to enjoying a writer more, getting more out of their work, seeing new levels in it, seeing how it relates to other things we enjoy -- when done well. When done the way it usually is (or is usually taught, anyway), it reduces it all to a formulaic, dry-as-bones, just goddamned DULL process... something it should never be. I am firmly in the camp Stover belonged to (in his critical book on Heinlein): that the only real reason to do this sort of thing is because you enjoy/admire/respect (any or all of the three) that writer, and wish to share that in a way that may also increase others' enjoyment of same writer by (perhaps) presenting things about their work in a new light... and anything that is that solidly based in enthusiasm should convey that enthusiasm. (Lin Carter, bless him, was a writer for whom I hold little liking as a writer -- but as a proponent of various types of imaginative fiction, as someone who promoted them and made them available and exciting to others... it'd be hard to beat that man.)