Zelazny and the rewriting of myths

[Leto]

The infamous Amber series is not the unique example of Roger Zelazny rewrote myths (in this case celtics ones IIRC). What do you think of his use of myths ?

[knivesout]

*bump

Since there're a few more Zelanzy readers around just now, I thought this might be a good idea.

I haven't yet read enough to comment though - I wasn't too kicked by the Amber books I'd read, and am more into his SF work. Although a couple of fantasies, The Changeling and The Changing Land - look inviting. Do these also rewrite old myths?

[nixie]

I've only read the Amber chronicles,so can't really comment.Will say I enjoyed Them,although prefered Corwin's books to Merlins

[Taltos]

Some thoughts :
Zelazny has used myths from all over the world, and quite succesfully, at least IMHO.

This Immortal - contains Greek myths - nicely incorporated into post-apocalyptic world.

Lord of Light - uses Indian mythology, don't know how exact he is in portrayal as I'm not very familiar with indian myhs (read some, otherwise couldn't understand H.L.Oldies "black rascal" (tshjornyi balamut)). But the characterization is very good and the mythical influence is very recognizable.

Isle of the Dead - has the notion that if you work hard enough, you may become manifistation of the god - also mythical background I think - although unable to determine from where - India perhaps (knivesout help out )

Jack of Shadows seems to be based on some myths - again I'm uncertain if it is based and on which

His cooperation with Scheckly "Bring me the head of prince charming"- works with the common christian mythology. Problem with this trilogy is not that the mythology is badly used, just that it tries desperatly to be funny, but fails on that account.

A Night in the Lonesome october - uses different sources to build upon, a very nice and funny novel.

Donnerjack - is supposedly using voodoo as base (sorry haven't read that one, still in the long reading list)

Psychoshop - seems also to be based on some myths - again I fail to categorize on which myths exactly

Lord Demon - is a story about war between gods and demons - again seems to be direct borrowing from India myths - background is fine, but the story is too much of a copy of "Nine pinces of Amber"

Hope this helps, although I'm not sure I answered your question at all

[Leto]

Eyes of the cat use Amerindian too.

Jack of Shadows seems to be based on some myths - again I'm uncertain if it is based and on which

His cooperation with Scheckly "Bring me the head of prince charming"- works with the common christian mythology. Problem with this trilogy is not that the mythology is badly used, just that it tries desperatly to be funny, but fails on that account.

A Night in the Lonesome october - uses different sources to build upon, a very nice and funny novel.

Jack of Shadows is very loosely based on Norse and Celtic myths. Scheckley collaboration was IMO hilarious and not based on mythology (except the former greek god and the fact there's Hell and Heaven) but more on novels and fairy tales as A Night in the Lonesome October.

Lord Demon is beased on Chinese mythology, not Indian.

[ravenus]

Isle of the Dead - has the notion that if you work hard enough, you may become manifistation of the god - also mythical background I think - although unable to determine from where - India perhaps (knivesout help out )

I doubt...don't recall any Indian mytho instances where people became manifestations of Gods by working hard...although they did earn divine favor and the chance to be received in heaven by performing oodles of good deeds.

[Taltos]

Originally Posted by Leto

Eyes of the cat use Amerindian too.

haven't read and have no knowledge

Originally Posted by Leto

Jack of Shadows is very loosely based on Norse and Celtic myths.

Can't make the connection to Norse myths no god/trolls, but if you say so

Originally Posted by Leto

Scheckley collaboration was IMO hilarious and not based on mythology (except the former greek god and the fact there's Hell and Heaven) but more on novels and fairy tales as A Night in the Lonesome October.

My statement was "christian mythology" i.e. god/devil/angels/demons etc.

Originally Posted by Leto

Lord Demon is beased on Chinese mythology, not Indian.

Oops, you are absolutely and definitely right. My bad

[Taltos]

Originally Posted by ravenus

I doubt...don't recall any Indian mytho instances where people became manifestations of Gods by working hard...although they did earn divine favor and the chance to be received in heaven by performing oodles of good deeds.

Ok, Indian myths contained mortals who through ascetism collected so much power that gods feared them, if I recall correctly. But no connection to becoming gods, but Isle of the dead is deffinitely mythos based, but which mythos ? Anybody have ideas?

[Leto]

Maybe the thing which led you to think of Hindouist mythology for Isle of the Dead is the use of term "avatars" to describe the relation between the Pe'ians and Francis Sandow and their gods. IIRC, they are the current mortal incarnation of these gods.
Those gods are clearly indo-europeans in inspirations but from which precise religion it's difficult to spot.


Same for Jack of the Shadows, the story echoes celt and norse legend plots, as Last Call's by Tim Powers without the most obvious characters

[terryweide]

Hi, I'm an old Zelazny reader myself, and I agree with most of what Taltos, but I'll add a couple of things. One that was missed:

Creatures of Light and Darkness--based on Egyptian mythology.

Also, in regards to Jack of Shadows, some fans have made a connection between Jack and Hermes the Greek messenger god of thieves. I think it's also possible to see Jack as a resurrection or Prometheus figure, someone who brings the world out of darkness and into light. At the beginning of the novel, the earth Jack inhabits doesn't rotate on its axis, one side, inhabited by supernatural creatures, is always dark, the other, ruled by modern technology, is always in the light. By the end of the book, Jack has restored the natural order, meaning there is now a normal day and night. Since Jack has the ability to move between the worlds of magic and science, he can also be seen as bridge, or transition point between these realms.

Isle of the Dead--if memory serves, it has elements of Greek mythology, but it's been a long time since I read it. However, Sandow, with his ability to shape, can be seen as a creation figure, someone who's bringing order out of chaos. Also, it could be argued the "Isle" can represent Hades, the Greek underworld.

I've read both Donnerjack and Lord Demon. Donnerjack has loose elements of Buddhist mythology, there are references to Mt. Meru, which in Buddhist tradition is said to be the home of the gods. Donnerjack, however, borrows from several sources, so I believe this is an instance where Zelazny overlaps mythologies. Lord Demon, as Leto points out, is based on Chinese mythologies or folk tales. IMHO, both Donnerjack and Lord Demon suffer because Zelazny died before finishing them. They were completed by Jane Linskold. While they read well enough, they don't have the feel of true Zelazny--they read more like someone finishing his last books for him.

A Night in the Lonesome October is not based on any classical mythologies, but takes as its source grade B horror movies from the '30s, Frankenstein, Dracula, The Wolfman, etc. As usual, though, Zelazny comes up with some original characters to round out the cast.

The Changeling is based on Celtic myths, or British and European myths/folk tales that a human child can be exchanged for one of supernatural origins.

The Dream Master has elements of both Greek mythology and Arthurian legend.

Finally, A Rose for Ecclesiastes takes at least some inspiration from the biblical book.

Overall, I think it's fair to say that myths and legends were a mainstay of Zelazny's writings, and that in many stories, he drew on more than one source, so again, I believe he overlapped things when he could.

That's about it off the top of my head. Feel free to add to this or correct as is useful. Terry

[GOLLUM]

Here you go, I moved it from General Discussion....

[Giovanna Clairval]

In Creatures of Light and Darkness, Zelazny uses myths from Egyptian, Greek, Norse and Christian traditions.

Donnerjack is an ensemble of Buddhist, Babylonian, and modern mythology intertwined and evolving on two planes of existence called Virtù (Italian for "virtue") and Réalité (a French word… Italian plus French! Thank you, Roger, for writing especially for me).

Computer-generated beings of godlike nature live in Virtù; when the planes open to each other, they appear in the everyday world.
Not very original? Right, but it was beautifully done.

Virtù can also be seen as the unconscious mind. Old Sigmund’s psychoanalysis and binary worlds where avatars roam, we are swimming in modern mythology here…

One question.
Does someone remember the sentence printed on t-shirts that kept popping up everywhere in Réalité? It was something like
“Ginger Rogers did all that Fred Astaire did, only she did it backwards”.
If memory serves, the literal meaning was that Ginger mirrored Fred’s moves, but, from a symbolic point of view, was Roger asking forgiveness for his portraying women as he did in the Amber cycle (excepting Dara and, a little, Fiona)?

[Snowdog]

Originally Posted by Giovanna Clairval

One question.
Does someone remember the sentence printed on t-shirts that kept popping up everywhere in Réalité? It was something like
“Ginger Rogers did all that Fred Astaire did, only she did it backwards”.
If memory serves, the literal meaning was that Ginger mirrored Fred’s moves, but, from a symbolic point of view, was Roger asking forgiveness for his portraying women as he did in the Amber cycle (excepting Dara and, a little, Fiona)?

I don't know about the t-shirt, but the quote is Ginger Rogers' own, "I did everything Fred did, but backwards and in high heels".

About Lord of Light, it was the the ship's crew who based their adopted personas on the Hindu pantheon, presumably because the colonists were mainly from an Indian/Hindu background, though I don't remember if that is actually stated. Rather than Zelazny as author simply picking Hindu mythology as the background of his story, though that may be a rather narrow difference. That being the case, there is no need for strict accuracy.

[Giovanna Clairval]

This is legal chutnering. I can't believe it!

Let's have a Zelazny sub-forum

And, a little help... to organise the threads...

Roger Zelazny: VERY IMPORTANT FOR FANS!

ZELAZNY's Complete SHORT STORIES Bibliography

Favourite Zelazny novels and short stories

Zelazny's A Rose for Ecclesiastes - The entire short story here (!), with commentary

New Zelazny Colletion in the works

Amber?

Zelazny and the rewriting of myths

Nine princes to Amber - Roger Zelazny

[Strife]

Originally Posted by Leto

The infamous Amber series is not the unique example of Roger Zelazny rewrote myths (in this case celtics ones IIRC). What do you think of his use of myths ?

Infamous? It's just because you don't like it? It's too popular for your taste?

I think that there's a lot in the Amber series.

But, talking about myths...

Immortal people who regrow burnt eyes. The myth of invulnerabilty. The myth of Superman. or, if you like, of Hercules and Achilles.