Overview of his Song of Fire and Ice series?

[TK-421]

Thank you. Merci. Arigato. Gracias. Grazie. Obrigado. Che che to good old trustworthy Boaz (and Wert).

Antiheroes you say...I was hoping you would give the examply of The Departed instead of Spidey but I agree with you nonetheless.

Oh, an I noticed you sneaked in Shogun. I'm actually going to start on King Rat soon. Just as soon as I finish The Gold Falcon (Katherine Kerr)

[Boaz]

Originally Posted by TK-421

Che che to good old trustworthy Boaz (and Wert).

Bu ke chi.

Warning! I am about to go way off topic.

For me The Departed wasn't even worthy of being called heroic or anti-heroic. It is the culmination of Martin Scorsese's death films. It was completely gratuitous.

Did The Departed have big stars? You betcha. Was Leo DiCaprio good? Very. Did the film have a big budget and look good? Absolutely. Was the basic premise of the police and the mob infiltrating each other intruiging? Yes. Did I feel the pressure that DiCaprio's and Damon's characters felt? Undeniably.

Scorsese pulls off all of the above with style. He's forgotten more about movies than I'd ever know, but in the end he's as subtle as an atomic bomb. Tarantino learned all his tricks from Scorsese. Hitchcock, Ford, Coppola, Kurosawa, Capra, Lumet, and Kieslowski all appreciated subltety. In this age of shock jocks, most entertainers think our culture has to be slapped hard to understand a point. But I think we can grasp nuances. Scorsese does not believe that his audiences can think for themselves. I think we can use our brains. Howard Stern only figuratively has left Planet Earth while Scorsese seems to have really left... I think Scorsese's way out there. I think he's obsessed with death. His movies just get more violent.

Could you imagine Bogart, Stewart, or Wayne getting their heads blown off for a cheap thrill? Me neither. Scorsese uses violence for the sake of violence and not to add realism to the story or characters.

On the other hand, I appreciate the way Martin opened ASOIAF. I felt he hit the ground running and expected his readers to do the same. Most writers spoon feed their readers through the beginning to bring them up to speed. And I've not felt that his use of violence and sex has been gratuitous, though they have been graphic.

I just saw an "extra" scene from The Return Of The King the other day. Aragorn, Gandalf, and company ride to the Black Gate and confront the Mouth of Sauron. Aragorn went Wolverine and killed the emissary! Are you kidding me?!?!?! No way Jackson did that! He had Aragorn murder an ambassador at parley! Stupid, stupid, stupid!

Aragorn already refused the Ring... he'd commited himself to revering Illuvatar, honoring the Valar, befriending the Eldar, and venerate his ancestors by avenging them by fulfilling their ages old plan of bringing Sauron the Deceiver to justice... he treated Gollum more humanely than he deserved... and now Aragorn just murders a man in cold blood? Obviously neither PJ nor the writers understood Aragorn's morals and motives. That was pure gratuity for the adolescents unfamiliar with Tolkien.

Aragorn as an anti-hero? Never. He was willing to sort of appear as an anti-hero to the men of Bree as his disguise. But I think he'd have dropped the guise if they'd really cared to know him. He looked foul but felt fair... to paraphrase Tolkien.

Yadda, yadda, yadda.

[TK-421]

...yadda, yadda, yadda...

Keep this up and I'll reconsider my reread of Clavell

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Im gone for two weeks (getting my culturefreak on in Italy) and this is what I come back to?

Apparently Raven and Wert have been dating...maybe each other, maybe not...what kind of omniscient mutant offspring would they produce?

Florian throws out a joke where he thinks Boaz and I are the same person...and Boaz compliments me so many times my head went all asplodey....so thank you Boaz and I should mention he and I are separate people. I am James Clavell though....so thanks for pimping my work so much.

Boaz-yer slamming Departed? Seriously? Wow. Okay I can accept that but please dont compare the self-indulgent tripe that Tarantino trots out to Scorcese's work. You lose your point when you do that....and remember Im James Clavell so youre fanboiness should kick in.

Now to keep in the spirit of the actual thread.....

Martins POV work is positively brilliant. Im sure its been done before and been done better but this is the first time I recall being so drawn into a characters perspective I had to remind myself I didnt like them (that would be Jaime).

He chooses who he "perspectifies" carefully. What you have is a series of characters close to the action but not actually the puppet masters. Jon is in the dark about world affairs, Tyrion, Cat, Jaime, etc but theyre all near one of the great movers. There are some exceptions but each of those shows us something else....Arya is the National Geographic of the world, she seems to catalog changes in the political landscape and shows us the daily life at a much lower level. Of the other notable exceptions one would be Brienne, she is neither near a power player and really doesnt give a look into the common man...and I dont like her crusade as a story arc so I may be biased. Another major exception was Ned, but George circumvented his knowledge by only bringing up certain plot points when Ned was in a "haze of pain".

So with that in mind we get to see what the major players are doing but we dont know the whole story. It would be a boring story line if the initial perspectives were Howland Reed, Tywin Lannister, Littlefinger, and the Eunuch. Heck just Varys alone would spoil everything I should think. By approaching the thinking of the major players but never revealing it he gives us more suspense and more things to think about. BY changing perspectives radically he shifts our paradigm forcing a rethink of the whole thing. Seriously brilliant work.

The more I think about it the more I realize Ned had to die. As a POV he knew too much, George would be hard-pressed to come up with conceits to keep us in the dark.

Of course major plot points are going to get resolved soon; Bran will uncover some major truth in the north Im sure, Sansa will learn Petyrs ultimate plans, Cersei will screw up everything, and Tyrion will get drunk....

So I can respect the fact someone wouldnt like the POV system employed, I just dont agree.

Sincerely,

James Clavell

[Boaz]

Dear James, er, I mean Your Grace,

How was Italy? Are you researching for a forthcoming Italian Saga? Books like Dirty Rat, Paisan, Pasta House, Caesar, or Nel Blu Di Pinto Di Blu?

Ned had to die. You're right.

Tyrion will get drunk... Tyrion's already drunk. You should have said Tyrion will puke.

Sincerely, Boaz

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Originally Posted by Boaz

Dear James, er, I mean Your Grace,

How was Italy? Are you researching for a forthcoming Italian Saga? Books like Dirty Rat, Paisan, Pasta House, Caesar, or Nel Blu Di Pinto Di Blu?

Im ashamed to admit it.....but one of things I looked forward to the most was retracing the steps taken in Dan Browns "Angels and Demons". I was not disappointed, I could only find two discrepancies and that was with Berninis fountain in Piazza Navona....

Highlights of my trip to Rome included--Santa Maria degli Angeli e dei Martiri (I think thats St Marys of the Angels and Martyrs) which is absolutely the most beautiful building I have ever seen....simple and intricate at the same time, and yet almost no one has ever heard of it. A much more spiritual experience than the Sistine Chapel.

Lowlights included my Catholic wife being so shocked and appalled by the egotistical self-tributes to various Popes in St Peters Basilica she questioned her faith. I long ago lost faith in the church so it didnt bother me as much...

So what was this thread about again?

[Fourth Hunter]

It has been succesfully taken off track. It's no longer about anything.

[Deblois]

Hi Boaz,
Just checking out some older threads here and I really enjoyed your comments on the POV and characters. I had trouble when I first read AGOT, keeping up with who was who my first time thru, and found myself wishing for a scorecard or some sort of listing of the characters (I wouldn't turn to the back of the book to look for an appendix for fear of spoilers) Then I found myself going back to reread the end of the POV character's previous chapter before starting the new one. I ended up keeping my own index card of chapter summaries, which helped. ( Did anyone else run into this? Or is it me?)

The moment I realized that I had somehow begun to root for and empathize with Jaime really blew my mind. I hated him. Couldn't wait for Rob to mount his head on a spike. How could I root for him? But that is the strength of Martin and ASOFAI - the characters. Who was good, who evil?

I am a big fan of Zelazny's Amber saga - it was when I learned to enjoy the waiting between books, and we rehashed and reread until the next one came out. (No internet Fantasy Forums back then, but we had the lunch table in HS) But there was also a blurred line between good and evil, Amber and Chaos, at the heart of the story.

[Werthead]

It's worth pointing out here that the appendix at the end of each volume lists the characters as they are before the novel begins, so you can read the appendices without any fear of spoiling the book you're reading or future ones.

[Deblois]

Thanks....I did figure that out, eventually.

[the smiling weirwood]

If you go to Rome you need to visit the Chapel the Cappuchin monks keep. Their catacombs are famous for the decor.

[Boaz]

Deblois, I'm glad you found my post helpful. I also found myself aghast at my own change of heart towards Jaime.

You may find the chapter synopses and the character descriptions here An Encyclopedia of Ice and Fire ~ Tower of the Hand very handy.

[cape_royds]

Originally Posted by Werthead

This may surprise some given my current GRRM uberfan status, but I must confess whilst reading A Game of Thrones I didn't immediately click with the book. I liked it, but I didn't think it anything above the ordinary. Even Event Beta (you'll know it when you get to it; Event Alpha is obviously Bran's defenestration scene) didn't shock me the way it did most people, as I could sense that GRRM was leading up to it.

However, the end of AGoT was really impressive and powerful. And A Clash of Kings just picked that up and rolled with it, piling revelation on top of revelation and picking up the pace massively. When we got to the end of the book and GRRM gave us the Best Battle Sequence/Siege in Epic Fantasy History, I knew then that this series was something special. And that's even before we get to the Best Swordfight in Epic Fantasy History in A Storm of Swords.

I was much the same at the start. A friend of mine had urged me to read AGOT, and at first it failed to stir me up much. Undead in the prologue, yeah whatever. Noble Ned likes to behead men himself, that's nice. Jon's a sullen bastard, oh that's original. Flashbacks to a dying girl talking to her brother, well I'm sure it means something, if I keep reading.

But as the story went on, and the plot lines intersected and overlapped, I gradually noticed myself becoming absorbed in the book. I also noticed that the novel began to emerge taller than the medievalist fantasy framework.

Then came the big plot twists. And they all made perfect, organic sense. When Ned got shortened, I was appalled--but grateful.

As for Clash, Swords, Feast--they're brilliant, and more so, on repeated readings. I've read the series four times and I'm still discovering new connections, and becoming aware of new avenues. It's a very good series.

ASOIAF is very much a product of its times: it's full of the moral relativism, narrative deconstruction, and attention to social issues (e.g. incest, child abuse). It will be interesting to see how it is regarded in twenty or thirty years (if it's not proscribed by the Future History neocon religious junta that Heinlein has predicted will rule us!)

[Lubbock]

Same here, i couldnt get hooked to begin with, nothing special really happend, it wasnt till Bran tried to learn how to fly i got began to get hooked and by the time Catelyn made a citizens arrest, i was hooked.

Now that i reread it, its great from the beginning, because you know all the characters and storylines.