Overview of his Song of Fire and Ice series?

[Onlythepine]

Originally Posted by Connavar of Rigante

Me i am reading A Game of Thrones and i must wonder one thing. Does anything actually happen storywise in this book? I have read over 200 pages and almost nothing has happened.

I dont care much for the characters so i dont care when one of them dies.

Except only sometimes i care for Jon and Tyrion but its not often you see them.

One big minus with GRRM is that he cant write a fight scene atleast not in this book.

Me I am reading your post and I must wonder one thing. Are you serious?! By page 200 I've already cried my eyes out! I mean, Ned kills Lady..It broke my heart (of course, then I thought Sansa was all right).
Really, I can't imagine why the characters don't appeal to you.. Maybe you should read some more.

[Connavar]

I will read some more i am not stupid enough to judge a book before finishing it. I was just saying what i thought at the moment. Many times i have read books i found annoying and boring and 100 pages later i was hooked and loved it.

I just took a pause from it to read my fav crime series.


The only time i really felt emotional for any character was when Bran was thrown off by Jaime and when they sent the assassin to kill him in his bed and his wolf saved him.

[Onlythepine]

Just wait, one day you'll wake up and realize that Jaime is your favourite character

[TK-421]

Originally Posted by Connavar of Rigante

Diffrent points of view dont impress me that much. Its just a gimmick, a way to tell me the story. Depth of characters i havent seen yet.

...cough, hack...I'm speechless. Raven, Wert, Weirwood, Ed, Arya, Aegon, somebody...HELP!

[Tabasco]

To be honest, I don't care much for the characters in this series either. Like someone said earlier, GRRM lays all their flaws out for everyone to see, and quite frankly, most of those people have done unforgiveable things. The character development is a bit sketchy to me. I really enjoy reading about Jon and Dolorous Edd and those guys on the wall, as well the various Greyjoys, and Stannis.

What I like most about this series is the pace and the storyline. There are so many factions that exist, some of them factions within factions, and very little separates them from each other. When they finally collide, it should be amazing. In terms of pace and politics, this series is fantastic.

[Boaz]

Connavar, Welcome to the Martin threads.

Originally Posted by Connavar of Rigante

I hope thats true cause even if dont like the characters,the story etc i always enjoy a good fight

I must say that sounds like you prefer gratuitous violence. I admit that I've enjoyed my share of gratuitous scenes in film and literature. I'm glad to hear your preference for sympathy, empathy, hatred, fondness, or whatever we call bonding with a character.

I hope you do find a character or two who you become interested in whether you hate or love them. For my own part, I quickly liked Ned and fairly quickly learned to hate Catelyn. Then I learned to not like Ned, really hate Cat, and start liking Tyrion. I really do not like, nor have ever liked, Jon... yet, his POV (point of view) tells a very interesting and seemingly essential part of the overall story. After the second book, Tyrion was clearly my favorite. After the third book, Jaime and Tyrion were my co-favorites and that's still how it stands with me.

Let me comment on the POV system that GRRM employs. I really like it... even when it annoys me. He uses it to give us information from multiple perspectives. These POVs utilize contrasts and comparisons of regional cultures, familial customs, gender attitudes, age variances, social expectations, and religious mindsets. He gives us parts of the whole from drastically different angles and then lets us try to guess what is really going on.

In school, I learned the story of the Blind Men and the Elephant. The first blind man reached out and felt the elephant's trunk and he said, "An elephant is like a snake." The second blind man reached out and felt the elephant's leg and he said, "An elephant is like a tree trunk." The third blind man reached out and felt the elephant's ear and he said, the elephant is like a fan." The fourth blind man reached out and felt the elephant's side and he said, "An elephant is like a wall." Each of the blind men thought the others were stupid in their assessments of the elephant. None of them was willing to try and experience the other person's point of view, so to speak.

GRRM's use of POVs makes us see the story only from certain angles. Usually author's give all the information pertinent to the story from one POV, but after reading ASOIAF, reading one POV feels like being spoon fed. Martin expects his readers to work hard to fill in the perceived gaps. And when readers are actively engaged in the very process of working the story out in their minds then they can be radically surprised when the author twists the story from their anticipated plot lines. I thought AGOT was going to be the generic Good Guys versus Bad Guys, but GRRM used the POVs to blur these distinctions. I can't into detail without spoiling the story.

Writing from the perspective of one character is not easy. Writing from the perspectives of over a dozen characters and keeping the characters all true to themselves and keeping them all distinct sort of blows my mind.

There are series I've started, but never finished. So if you don't keep up with ASOIAF, I understand. Yet, I hope to hear your assessment after you've finished AGOT. If you're still not impressed, that's okay... not everyone has the same tastes, that's the great thing about art. Don't worry about us flaming you, I think we are big enough (I know GRRM is, how could he be a successful author if he wasn't?) to take it.

Originally Posted by Onlythepine

Just wait, one day you'll wake up and realize that Jaime is your favourite character

Truer words were never posted.

Edit: While I was typing in my usual verbosity, Tabasco posted and I'd like to comment.

You like some of the POVs, but not the character at the center of the POV. I know what you mean... Cat, Jon, Bran, Theon, Aeron, Asha, Arys, and Cersei all bother me, but certain vital and indispesable information was gleaned from their POVs. Catelyn and Bran especially set up Jaime.

Yes, some of the characters have commited heinous crimes and done despicable deeds. Yet as I've read on in the series, the theme of redemption has come up. As a Christian, I'm very curious to see what GRRM does with characters trying to make good on a bad past. Yes, Jaime is a bad guy. Okay, I admit he's been the poster child for the Hitler Youth or for Satan's Summer Camp, but is he condemned to continue wrecking other people's lives? Can a tiger change his stripes?

Originally Posted by Tabasco

What I like most about this series is the pace and the storyline. There are so many factions that exist, some of them factions within factions, and very little separates them from each other. When they finally collide, it should be amazing. In terms of pace and politics, this series is fantastic.

If you like this style of story and plot lines, I suggest Shogun by James Clavell. 'Nuff said.

[AandKsavetheDAY]

Hey-o... I guess I'm new here. I'm re-reading the series right now (i'd hoped that once I was finished Dance would be out, but I'm on AFFC now so that's not likely.) Anyways, I just wanted to come to the defense of the characters in this book... why all the bashing? They're real for god sakes! No real person is a perfect hero, and I think grrm has done a great job giving depth to his people. Anyways, Game starts off kinda slow, I can't lie, but I just think that is because there is so much history and so many characters that you aren't familiar with, which can make things start off a little confusing. Just so long as you keep reading, you'll get familiar with the story and seting(s) and come to appreciate the dynamic that the different characters bring. Wow... I just realized how cheesy that sounded. Oh well.

[Connavar]

Originally Posted by Boaz

Connavar, Welcome to the Martin threads.


I must say that sounds like you prefer gratuitous violence. I admit that I've enjoyed my share of gratuitous scenes in film and literature. I'm glad to hear your preference for sympathy, empathy, hatred, fondness, or whatever we call bonding with a character.

I hope you do find a character or two who you become interested in whether you hate or love them. For my own part, I quickly liked Ned and fairly quickly learned to hate Catelyn. Then I learned to not like Ned, really hate Cat, and start liking Tyrion. I really do not like, nor have ever liked, Jon... yet, his POV (point of view) tells a very interesting and seemingly essential part of the overall story. After the second book, Tyrion was clearly my favorite. After the third book, Jaime and Tyrion were my co-favorites and that's still how it stands with me.

Let me comment on the POV system that GRRM employs. I really like it... even when it annoys me. He uses it to give us information from multiple perspectives. These POVs utilize contrasts and comparisons of regional cultures, familial customs, gender attitudes, age variances, social expectations, and religious mindsets. He gives us parts of the whole from drastically different angles and then lets us try to guess what is really going on.

In school, I learned the story of the Blind Men and the Elephant. The first blind man reached out and felt the elephant's trunk and he said, "An elephant is like a snake." The second blind man reached out and felt the elephant's leg and he said, "An elephant is like a tree trunk." The third blind man reached out and felt the elephant's ear and he said, the elephant is like a fan." The fourth blind man reached out and felt the elephant's side and he said, "An elephant is like a wall." Each of the blind men thought the others were stupid in their assessments of the elephant. None of them was willing to try and experience the other person's point of view, so to speak.

GRRM's use of POVs makes us see the story only from certain angles. Usually author's give all the information pertinent to the story from one POV, but after reading ASOIAF, reading one POV feels like being spoon fed. Martin expects his readers to work hard to fill in the perceived gaps. And when readers are actively engaged in the very process of working the story out in their minds then they can be radically surprised when the author twists the story from their anticipated plot lines. I thought AGOT was going to be the generic Good Guys versus Bad Guys, but GRRM used the POVs to blur these distinctions. I can't into detail without spoiling the story.

Writing from the perspective of one character is not easy. Writing from the perspectives of over a dozen characters and keeping the characters all true to themselves and keeping them all distinct sort of blows my mind.

There are series I've started, but never finished. So if you don't keep up with ASOIAF, I understand. Yet, I hope to hear your assessment after you've finished AGOT. If you're still not impressed, that's okay... not everyone has the same tastes, that's the great thing about art. Don't worry about us flaming you, I think we are big enough (I know GRRM is, how could he be a successful author if he wasn't?) to take it.

Truer words were never posted.

Edit: While I was typing in my usual verbosity, Tabasco posted and I'd like to comment.

You like some of the POVs, but not the character at the center of the POV. I know what you mean... Cat, Jon, Bran, Theon, Aeron, Asha, Arys, and Cersei all bother me, but certain vital and indispesable information was gleaned from their POVs. Catelyn and Bran especially set up Jaime.

Yes, some of the characters have commited heinous crimes and done despicable deeds. Yet as I've read on in the series, the theme of redemption has come up. As a Christian, I'm very curious to see what GRRM does with characters trying to make good on a bad past. Yes, Jaime is a bad guy. Okay, I admit he's been the poster child for the Hitler Youth or for Satan's Summer Camp, but is he condemned to continue wrecking other people's lives? Can a tiger change his stripes?

If you like this style of story and plot lines, I suggest Shogun by James Clavell. 'Nuff said.

Once again i have to say i dont prefer action. Its that nothing has impressed me yet that i had hoped for something to impress me even its a simple fight scene.



What i dont think sounds good is that people say that he kills off the good guys and that bad guys are mostly left and that they are the best characters.

I dont know if thats true but i know i dont like rooting for the bad guy no matter how complex a writer tries to make the story.

A good bad guy is one you hate and not when you like cause that means the good guys are boring characters.

I geuss i will know if thats true when i have finished the book.

[Boaz]

Are good guys good every second of their lives? Do good guys ever do things that are not virtuous? I'm not advocating anti-heroes, Lord knows that's almost we ever get now on TV and film. But are bad guys irretrevably evil?

I saw the latest Spider-Man movie and I must say that I've had problems with the villains in all three movies. The problem is that the villains are not evil. The Green Goblin was not evil, just insane from the potion. Doc Ock was not evil, his arms were. Harry Osborn was not evil, he just had psychological issues. Eddie Brock was not evil, but his suit was. And the Sandman said during his first appearance, "I"m not a bad guy, I've just had bad luck." According to the writers, none of Spidey's foes was really resposible for the pain and suffering they inflicted upon people.

Of these enemies, only Sandman has a struggle in his soul regarding his deeds. The others had only to overcome their costumes or mental illnesses. Sandman actually had to deal with himself. I admit that Thomas Haden Church and Toby Maguire don't wow me dramatically like Jack Nicholson and Denzel Washington, but we found that the Sandman discovered some level of redemption. So no matter how disgusting or revolting, villains are people also. I'm not saying that they should not be punished for their crimes, but there is some level of soul salvation that can be attained by confession and correct actions.

This is why I find Tyrion and Jaime as the two most intriguing characters in ASOIAF. I've read traditional fantasy stories for more than thirty years. I've read plenty of stories where the characters of Bran, Jon, Ned, Arya, Sansa, Robb, Dany, and Gendry succeed against all odds to achieve their fulfillment as the hero of the age. ASOIAF is a breath of fresh air in a stale, cookie cutter, predictable, and deus ex machina relying genre.

Originally Posted by Connavar of Rigante

I geuss i will know if thats true when i have finished the book.

Best wishes on your journey!

[Connavar]

I do like Tyrion no matter how bad he becomes later in the story. Mostly cause he is an underdog since he is an imp, a dwarf people look down on.


I have to get back you on the bad guys and good guys thing since i havent read this kind of fantasy before. So i have to see how the characters turn out in ISOAF.

Also i didnt say the bad guys must be truly evil or what not. The bad guys i like most reading about arent not the uber evil and dangerous villain. Its the weak,coward that lets himself become bad. Those i like reading about.

[Boaz]

Connavar, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I'm talking in generalities... as much to myself as anyone.

Looks like we're the only ones around this weekend... and I gotta go.

[Werthead]

This may surprise some given my current GRRM uberfan status, but I must confess whilst reading A Game of Thrones I didn't immediately click with the book. I liked it, but I didn't think it anything above the ordinary. Even Event Beta (you'll know it when you get to it; Event Alpha is obviously Bran's defenestration scene) didn't shock me the way it did most people, as I could sense that GRRM was leading up to it.

However, the end of AGoT was really impressive and powerful. And A Clash of Kings just picked that up and rolled with it, piling revelation on top of revelation and picking up the pace massively. When we got to the end of the book and GRRM gave us the Best Battle Sequence/Siege in Epic Fantasy History, I knew then that this series was something special. And that's even before we get to the Best Swordfight in Epic Fantasy History in A Storm of Swords.

[dreamweaver]

Hmmm.. I found the first book engrossing from the get-go.

The first thing that really made me sit up and take notice was actually a pretty small thing. The line where Bran talks about his father's blade, Ice, which was made of Valyrian steel, 'which all knew held an edge like no other'.

From that one line it seemed to me like there was more here than what was merely on the page. A whole new world was there waiting in the background. Vibrant, new, mysterious, exotic.

It made me want to read ahead and find out more.

That's one of the things I admire about Martin's storytelling - his ability to paint a large image within a small frame, to give you a sense of a vast world out there. And you are only seeing and hearing this one part, right now - but if you stick around he will show you so much more...

[Tabasco]

Originally Posted by Boaz

ASOIAF is a breath of fresh air in a stale, cookie cutter, predictable, and deus ex machina relying genre.

Let me say that if I didn't like the series, I wouldn't waste my time to come here just to bash it. I like ASOIAF. In regards to what I've quoted, though... yes, GRRM struck gold with this series and the direction he's taken it in. The only thing I see that seems bad is the number of lines he has cast. If he doesn't start cutting some of them, or drawing others in, this series will drag on forever. Most people I know never expected it to reach 7 books. We're kind of sitting there with the Robert Jordan deer-in-headlights look going, "Seven?" And folks can point and laugh and go 'ha ha, Robert Jordan', until they open up their own closet and see his first four books there collecting dust. Yeah, you've got a whole new generation of readers who swear Jordan is great because they've got like 10 or 11 books to read (which is insane). But any older Jordan reader like myself always know what the second question is going to be. "So when did you stop reading the series?" Geez. No matter how good my intentions I always end up bashing Jordan. The point, I guess, is that I LIKE ASOIAF, and I don't want to see it become the neverending story like what Jordan and Goodkind did.

Oh, and on Tyrion and Jaimie... I hate Jaimie. What he did to Bran, there is no redemption for. Tyrion, on the other hand, is awesome. He's never really been bad, as in evil bad. And Bron is fairly cool as well, because he's never really been good, as in godly good. Yet somehow they seem to coexist, and even enjoy each others company.

[Boaz]

Originally Posted by Tabasco

The point, I guess, is that I LIKE ASOIAF, and I don't want to see it become the neverending story like what Jordan and Goodkind did.

Amen.

Even though the schedule calls for seven books to ASOIAF (instead of the original six), I feel that GRRM has a solid grasp of the total story including the major plots, the minor plots, twists, and the ending. Some series feel that the author is on a wild ride of a bandwagon success... it seems the author does not yet know where it will end or exactly where it's going. ASOIAF feels to cohesive and directed to me even though it's unfinished.