Finishing school for girls gone wrong

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Im currently overseas (in the oddly named "green zone" of Iraq) and I read these boards to get a different perspective from the media coverage Im bombarded with. I witness all kinds of muslim on muslim violence over here thats is real easy to lose focus that this was once nominally, a united country. Its reasons like this article that the US can not just back out of Iraq....its one of those once you opened the can of worms you kinda have to take responsibility for picking em back up.

Military: New Iraqi school had bombs built in - CNN.com

[dustinzgirl]

You do realize, of course, that the male dominated fanatical government was killing women for being educated, raped, or pretty much doing anything thier husband's didn't want them too....long before we got involved over there. They still stone and hang women, for christ's sakes. Thats not something they just made up because other governments got involved!

[Aegon the Unworthy]

I miss your point....are you saying my point is invalid because they've always hanged and tortured their women?

The amount of destruction the extremists can inflict on the people living there is fascinating.....Ive personally witnessed the attempted destruction of water treatment facilities to rural communities.....forgetting for a second that part of the endemic reason the water in Iraq is so bad is due to UN sanctioned embargoes it would seem to me that it would be in everyones best interest to improve that particular situation and then wage war on each other.

It is impossible for insurgents to strike the hamper the US forces water supply so this is clearly an attack on the local community....which in both cases were not Shiites (as the attackers claimed to be)....so what do we do? Allow that happen?

I would be the first to say I abhor the thought of any military unit being inflicted upon a civilian population. There is no subtlety in the US presence there, there is no way for these people to live their lives without the ever-present spectre of this occupation looming over them....be that as it may, the US is present.....my only point is an immediate draw out is a ridiculous idea...the loss in lives will not decrease. This is such a complicated issue it staggers the mind.....

[littlemissattitude]

Well, what are we going to do? Stay there forever? Make the place the 51st state? I don't like the idea of my friends and the children of my friends having to go over there for the rest of forever because "we can't leave the mess we made." All this is happening because a few lilly-livered neocons took advantage of a tragedy (9/11) to advance imperial aspirations that they were just waiting for an excuse to put into motion. They enjoy strutting all over the place like they've done something cool because they get to play at war like it is a fine game, but they aren't willing to pay the price themselves. Good men and women are risking their lives every single day in an untenable situation because of the arrogance of the current administration. I say, if they want to stay, make them...Bush and Cheney and all their cronies...go over there and live in it and with it themselves. Without the proper equipment, like our military personnel have had to do and continue to have to do. Make the people who actually made the mess clean it up.

End of rant. I'm feeling a little cranky today, as you can probably tell.

[dustinzgirl]

I'm saying that the problem existed before we arrived. Now all the problems are laid at our footsteps, regardless of the cause.

Background on Women's Status in Iraq Prior to the Fall of the Saddam Hussein Government (November 2003)

Yes there are serious problems in Iraq. Problems that will not be resolved by the US pulling out right now. If we do so, we leave a country at the mercy of the terrorist factions we were trying (inadequately) to prevent. The country will fall into the hands of religious factions and the living conditions of women and children will be worse.

I don't particularily care about the war being a money maker. I don't care about the government and what they stand to gain from the war. I care about the people we will leave behind after promising them a better life. That might make me very politically incorrect, but what are we doing over there if we can't stabalize a nation for the benefit of the people?

What we need to do is create viable laws that protect the innocent. We need to make sure that women and girls are not:

Tehran: Women's Peaceful Demonstrations Being Violently Suppressed « Women’s Space/The Margins
Now Woman in Tal Afar Alleges Rape From Security Forces. US Officers Don't Want to Know. [.Common Sense]
Islam and the Woman - Part 3. Dr Younus Shaikh.

Yes I know the war is wrong and was fueled by a desire to amass wealth. I understand that. I am saying that it is ridiculous to think that we can not help the common person while we are there.

Furthermore, if we help the common person and stabalize the economy, make men accountable for the lives of thier wives and children instead of allowing the atrocities against women and children to occur, then we can leave. I'm more looking at the humanitarian side. If we leave now, I guarantee that the situation for the average Iraq woman and child will be drastically worse, probably worse than it ever has been.

This is just my opinion. I am not the brightest light bulb in the cafeteria, and you can take my opinion for what little it is worth. What I do see is that increasingly, there is a global war against women. South America, South Africa, Islam, India.....it is becoming impossible to be born a female and live a good life.

We, as nations of wealth and knowledge, have a responsibility to the weak and the supressed.


PS: just so you all know, I DON"T actually know anything. I'm just saying...

[littlemissattitude]

There are so many things I want to say here, and they are just not coming out right. I agree with you completely about the situation of women in the world. And it seems to me that as long as our military is in Iraq, they should be doing things to actively help the people there. And, in fact, I think that such things do go on, but they are mostly individual initiatives by members of the military and not officially sanctioned activities.

But I don't think that staying there with a military presence is going to materially improve the situation. We can't stay forever, and unfortunately I think that is what it would take. Not because the people are not willing to improve their situation, but because the governments involved...both the American and Iraqi governments...are not really all that interested in improving the situation of the people. Governments pretty much never are interested in that, sad to say.

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Originally Posted by littlemissattitude

There are so many things I want to say here, and they are just not coming out right. I agree with you completely about the situation of women in the world. And it seems to me that as long as our military is in Iraq, they should be doing things to actively help the people there. And, in fact, I think that such things do go on, but they are mostly individual initiatives by members of the military and not officially sanctioned activities.

This is one point I must disagree on. The US military is very very active in improving the infrastructure here. The local Red Horse squadron (Combat Engineers for those not in the know) are outside the wire on a daily basis building something. We've built hospitals, water treatment facilities, schools, you name it....this is no individual action to help these people....these activities are command mandated. Feel free to say what you want about the US government but the US military is a different animal.

Dustinz....I agree with you 2000%.....you realize that probably makes you wrong. Its not so easy to stare at the suffering in the world and walk away....for me at least, Im not going to ascribe the same emotions to others that make the decisions for our nation. I understand theres problems everywhere, but theres only so much one can do. Thats the problem with setting a time table for withdrawl....you cant set a timeline for cultural growth.

The more I think about the situation....the muddier it gets for me.

[Foxbat]

I'm certainly no expert but what surprises me is the apparent naivete with which the US and UK entered into this war. Ho Chi Minh showed in Vietnam that, if you can outwait the enemy, you can win. This is a carbon copy in action. As long as the insurgents keep busy causing chaos, they can win by simply waiting for public opinion in both the UK and USA to turn so far against the war that we have no choce but to pull out the troops.

Bush may have vetoed the last attempt to get them out but even he must see that the writing is well and truly on the wall.

[littlemissattitude]

Originally Posted by Aegon the Unworthy

This is one point I must disagree on. The US military is very very active in improving the infrastructure here. The local Red Horse squadron (Combat Engineers for those not in the know) are outside the wire on a daily basis building something. We've built hospitals, water treatment facilities, schools, you name it....this is no individual action to help these people....these activities are command mandated. Feel free to say what you want about the US government but the US military is a different animal.

It's good to know that, Aegon. I just wish the word would get out that this sort of thing is going on. It certainly isn't being portrayed in any of the reports I've seen.

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Heres the thing, when my group walks outside the wire to do something we are greeted warmly by the locals. Not the flag waving "hoo-rah America" kind of thing but smiles and waves and what not. Kids run over to us to talk, and people ask for help.

But then when we go further afield into the rural communities there is a great sense of trepidation emanating from these people. I believe firmly Muslims are not intrinsically bad people. They do not hate us, they are afraid. By talking to us they put themselves at risk and just plain dont want to. I can accept that. I believe at some point you have to take responsibility for improving the world around you but not everyone has the same tipping point I guess. Anyhow, the desire to help is outweighed by the desire to not do harm in this case. So we try to avoid talking to people who dont want to talk to us. Would these rural communities improve if we werent there? I dont know. I think not but honestly Im not a bright enough guy to know.

Case in point; I was up in the hills of Northern Iraq at a small fishing village. Our engineers explained to the village leaders that we could improve both their fishing and their irrigation for farming with about a week of work but we'd need some manpower from the village. The general answer we got back was "In'shallah" (dont know how thats really spelled....just going by how it sounds)...which literally means "If Allah wills it to be so, it will" but Ive learned is more correctly a kind of "whatever...Im not gonna worry about it" sort of thing. One of our intepreters explained that they knew whatever we built would be destroyed shortly after we left and probably village leaders would be shot as well.

What Im learning is the various extremist factions in Iraq have an interested in keeping the rural communities in the stone age. They will hurt, kill or destroy whatever they need to....How can we leave them to this tomorrow? How can we force a people to live under this kind of terror? If we pull out tomorrow, next month or next year whats going to happen in the vacuum. I have a conscience and Im not comfortably leaving these people to their own devices.

I have a lot more things to ramble about but I think thats enough today....

[murphy]

Aegon, (the not so unworthy), I'm finding your posts very interesting. I have often wondered what Iraq is like from the viewpoint of a regular soldier stationed there. Thanks.