Big mistakes in sf.

[j. d. worthington]

Originally Posted by Dave

The first time I ever saw Star Wars (and I was one of the people in the queues around the block) I thought that Tatooine was Arrakis. The Sarlac in Return of the Jedi only confirmed it for me.

I also thought that Hoth was the ice kingdom of Frigia, that Endor was the forest kingdom of Arora combined with the jungle kingdom of Tropica, that Cloud City was the flying city of the Hawkmen, and that Naboo was the undersea kingdom of the Shark Men, all from Flash Gordon. But maybe I was just too cynical.

Hmmm. I'm still waiting for the spirit of H. Beam Piper to rise up and clonk Lucas over the head, myself.....

[Timewalker]

Originally Posted by Kostmayer

(Rumour has it that Arrakis is actually Tatooine, or is it the other way around?)

Never heard that one. The Sarlac could be a vertcally buried worm I suppose. Or the worms could have evolved from Sarlacs, Star Was set a long time ago..

Dune was published in the '60s; Star Wars came out in the late '70s. From a RL perspective, it could be speculated that Lucas may have read Dune and thought, "Sandworms, cool idea -- I'll borrow it!"

From the perspective of linking the two for fanfic purposes... no. There is no connection. Arrakis is not located in another galaxy, and you don't see any Tatooine people running around with blue-in-blue eyes, or any mention of spice. People seem able to exist there quite well without benefit of stillsuits, there are no worms cruising around the desert, and Arrakis doesn't have any nonhumans that remotely resemble those found on Tatooine.

(yes, I know that in fanfic one is free to speculate, but in my opinion good fanfic has to be consistent with what has been established in the original universe)

[Marvolo]

Originally Posted by Stig

Many writers are scientists - and many are 'scientists'.
But what makes Frank Herbert make it possible to freeze a poison to -400 K.
Any bigger mistakes around?
My grammar may be a little wrong, just as my spelling. Sorry, English/American is not my natural language.

I believe he did that as a way to show how uber their technology was. In these books people also see the future as well as fold space to travel many lightyears extremely fast.

C'mon, its a fiction novel.

[j. d. worthington]

Originally Posted by Marvolo

I believe he did that as a way to show how uber their technology was. In these books people also see the future as well as fold space to travel many lightyears extremely fast.

C'mon, its a fiction novel.

Indeed. I think I'd also add that he was showing that they had a differently-based technology, with a different understanding of physics and how the universe worked, which allowed them to do things that are outside our abilities because of our own blinders. It's impossible for us to do such a thing because of our understanding of physics; this does not mean it is impossible under any conditions which may exist in the universe -- so he was also approaching the epistemological aspect of things here, arguing (and this has a fair amount of truth to it in some ways) that a civilization's basic understanding of reality helps to determine what they can do with the basic substance of that reality.

[pyan]

Originally Posted by j. d. worthington

he was showing that they had a differently-based technology, with a different understanding of physics and how the universe worked, which allowed them to do things that are outside our abilities because of our own blinders.

Like the Little People, the native Venerians in RAH's Space Cadet (1948), who could liquefy air and extract the oxygen with no apparent technology whatsoever, and replicate maple syrup with the authentic flavour.
It's postulated that they are true chemists, using catalysts and room temperature processes, worked out because of the lack of metal on that particular Venus.

[j. d. worthington]

Exactly. This is a common theme in a lot of sf and, as I said, it has a fair amount of validity in many ways. The postulates we begin with often influence our overall understanding of a particular aspect of reality and therefore the results we are able to get where that is concerned.

[Marvolo]

Originally Posted by j. d. worthington

Exactly. This is a common theme in a lot of sf and, as I said, it has a fair amount of validity in many ways. The postulates we begin with often influence our overall understanding of a particular aspect of reality and therefore the results we are able to get where that is concerned.

There is no spoon.

Oh yeah, killed all credibility with one movie quote.

[j. d. worthington]

Originally Posted by Marvolo

There is no spoon.

Oh yeah, killed all credibility with one movie quote.

LOL! Well... there goes the ball game!....

[steve12553]

This is a hell of a place to jump back in.

I really think the difference between good and bad Science Fiction is the manor in which they disguise the unknown. Someone mention faster than light travel as a mistake. It is only a mistake if you explain it in terms of science as we know it. If I write that I powered up my rockets and accelerated up to Warp 1.5, I'm full of beans. If I use dilithium crystals to focus a matter-anti-matter reaction, we don't know what that really means in terms of science but it might work. It isn't laid out in discernable detail to pick apart. It says that there may be a way that we haven't discovered that will allow us to travel faster than light. 150 years from now this discussion may still be valid or we might be thinking this discussion into a computer network across lightyears of distance as we cruise along at many times light speed. It's much easier to prove something does exist or is possible rather than the converse.

[j. d. worthington]

Hi, Steve! Good to see you back around the place!

And yes, that's largely what Lovecraft was talking about when he said the following:

The time has come when the normal revolt against time, space, & matter must assume a form not overtly incompatible with what is known of reality – when it must be gratified by images forming supplements rather than contradictions of the visible & mensurable universe. And what, if not a form of non-supernatural cosmic art, is to pacify this sense of revolt – as well as gratify the cognate sense of curiosity?

[steve12553]

That may take a while to chew.

[lin robinson]

The one with the Ben Hur rocket race in it had that super cool waterfall city...which can be studied more closely in the book Dinotopia.

[Quokka]

Originally Posted by The Ace

Please, look at my location again.

Maybe you need to change your location to

Perth: The draft version

*ducks as a Roman Spear goes screaming past*


I know Hal Clement later said that he got the maths wrong in Mission of Gravity, the polar gravity of Mesklin should have been much lower than what is described in the book.

And speaking of Star Wars, there are alot of sound effects for stuff that is happening in space.

[sarakoth]

Originally Posted by Ice fyre

Now I dont know how true this is but someone once told me that people used to sneak up behind Frank Herbert and whisper OXYGEN to him, as Dune has no oceans or forests where most of our gas exchange appears to happen.

Now I am totally willing to be corrected on this as it wasnt a very reliable source.

Oh and Ace is from Scotland, Perth in Australia was named after it.

I assume that's what you mean.

There are plants on Arrakis.

[sarakoth]

Another thing I don't get is how they move around so fast in The Butlerin Jihad. Fold space drive wasn't invented yet but they could traverse the galaxy in a matter of months.

Also, astronomy seems to be a lost science. The "known universe" in Dune is much smaller than the "known universe" today.