Dying for a good fantasy book (help a guy out with a recommendation)

[Revelation]

Hey everybody, it seems that I've run out of quality reading material, so I thought I'd find some people that share my passion and see if they could suggest some quality fantasy that I would enjoy.

Now, I've been reading up on different titles and authors here on this forum and on amazon, but it seems that there's not enough information for me to base my decision on. So what I've thought I'd do is post a thread here with some of the titles/authors I've liked/disliked, and explain what I've liked/disliked in them, and that would help you guys narrow down your suggestions.

Alright so lets start with stuff I've liked, and why I've liked it

Steven Erikson's Malazan Series (my fav)

• Incredible complexity of it all, how he has all these characters and all these plotlines interacting in this huge living breathing world, and how he manages to consistently pull it off
• Realism - You know those moments where you reading a book and you come up on something that just rips you right out of the make-believe world because it is so rediculously unplausable? (See my Guy Gavriel Kay Lions section below for an example) Well there's no such moments in Erikson's series.
• Humour - Kruppe, Tehol/Bugg, Spindle, Antsy, just fantastic dry humour that really hits the spot
• War - Military campains, people dying, horrors of war, etc. That stuff is super exciting!

George Martin's ASOIAF (2nd place)

• Realism - As a setting based on the English hundred years war, it is realistic in the way people of that time period behaved and treated each other (torture, assassination, war, bloody vengence). As opposed to the whole virtuos knights going on quests, righting wrongs, saving maiden's in distress, PG-rated Robin Hood cleaned up version of the medieval age that is usually depicted in fantasy. And i love it.
• War - same as Erikson
• Main characters die - awesome!
• Lots of plot lines/players

Terry Pratchett's Discworld

• English dry wit, nuff said

R. Scott Baker's The Prince of Nothing

• Take everything that made Erikson and Martin good and toss in some Crusades and a creepy ubermensch? Jackpot!

Early Robert Jordan's A Wheel of Time

• Even though it was obvious to me from the start that its the old 'farmboy becomes savior of the world' template, and that Rand was the main character, and that he was the ONE, and that Morgaine and Lan were his ticket out of the village, and that they were all safe from dying, Jordan's world was still so exciting that I finished Eye of the World in under three days. I didn't care that it was the tired old formula, I didn't care that Trollocs were orcs and Myrdhaal were the witchkings from LOTR, all i could see was the awesomeness of the Children of Light, of Lan being badass, of the cursed city, of Perrin's wolfman friend, of the Tinkers, of the world behind the gateways, the ride into the Blight, etc. I suppose I liked it so much because it was such a superb world with so many interesting things in it, as well as the plot moving swiftly along, and Jordan's superb writing. Me still being an impressionable high schooler at the time also helped.

And now to stuff I can't stand and why that is

Late Robert Jordan's A Wheel of Time

I remember finishing A Path of Daggers, throwing up a little in my mouth, and thinking about where I could find some anthrax to mail to Robert Jordan. Somewhere along the line, the awesomeness that was the WOT series turned into a story of spineless eunichs being slapped around by a bunch of braid-tugging, skirt-smoothing, shawl-adjusting, lace-admiring, power-hungry, misandreous and manipulative Condoleeza Rice harpies obsessed with meaningless power struggles. Oh but I'm not being fair here am I. There were also the endress descriptions of dresses, cups, and tiles.

Guy Gavriel Kay's Tigana and Lions of Al-Rassan

On a different forum Tigana was recommended as a great fantasy book that was strong on themes of loyalty and companionship, a la LOTR. Now, I've only managed to get through slightly more than half of the novel, but it seems to me that in Kay's eyes, this means endless descriptions of people's feelings, people crying, people crying because OTHER people are crying, and meaningful glances full of sorrow. Hell the only reason I kept reading was expecting the chapter where the cast would all get together for a good cry right before getting their balls surgically removed at the clinic. Well, maybe not so much, but if there's one thing I can't stand is this kind of sappy excuse for character development.

Kay's Lions of Al-Rassan had 80% less crying, but it still had tremendous problems. Now, possibly the greatest sin in fantasy is committed when the author either doesn't do his research, or brings in his own biased worldview into the book, totally destroying the immersion. Here's an example of this happening in Kay's book- There's a part where a Muslim king invites a Jewish female physician to a banquet (Lions is based on Moorish Spain during the Reconquista). Here's what's wrong with that line:

1. Jews were looked down upon and persecuted through the ages by both Christians and Muslims. There's no way a medieval Muslim king would tolerate a presence of a Jew at his court.
2. A king doesn't invite, he orders. Especially a servant such as a physician.
3. A female doctor? In the Middle Ages? Don't make me laugh
4. Inviting to a banquet. After getting the invitation, the jewess went to the market, bought herself a new dress, put it on along with some jewels and went to the banquet. I don't know about you, but this strikes me as something that would only happen in the present, like a rich couple being invited to some charity event where everyone is dressed up, snacking on Hors'doerves, drinking champaine, and mingling. Never in 11th century Spain.

Feist's Magician - Apprentice
Having immensly enjoyed the first Riftwar book back in junior high, I picked up Apprentice last year. Although I finished it, I was bored to tears reading it. A predictable boy grows up to become a superstar story, it was obvious that Pug and that other guy would never be in any real danger, would grow up to do great things, and that Pug would later hook up with that princess. Boring plot in a boring world. I guess I outgrew that whole youth fantasy formula.



So there it is. Looks like I'm looking for a fantasy novel that is realistic, complex, military-oriented, plot heavy, without explicit over-the-top sappy characterization, and one hopefully funny in places.

Any suggestions?

[nixie]

Try The Lies of Locke Lamora by Scott Lynch and The Blade Itself by Joe Abercrombie, both excellent debut novels.

[Apanomar]

Hmm. So, battles... assassinations... well, okay, so I may be biased in this recommendation: go ahead and try Assassin's Apprentice by Robin Hobb, the first book in the Farseer Trilogy. It's got the intriguing world, characters of interest, (and you'll be pleased to know it doesn't waste time with description overkill). Hmm, maybe not so much "killing off" characters, but the writer isn't scared to give her main characters a really tough time! It's also a unique first person writing style, constantly inside the main character's (Fitz) head, going through everything as he goes through it, never losing track of the story. Really can't stress enough the brilliance of the characters in this story. Oh, and it's definately NOT the farm boy saves the world template, so that can only be a good thing.

[ace]

try the tribe of one series by simon hawke it follows one of the best character designs ive ever read

[Teresa Edgerton]

Originally Posted by Revelation

]Jews were looked down upon and persecuted through the ages by both Christians and Muslims. There's no way a medieval Muslim king would tolerate a presence of a Jew at his court.

I think you need to do a little fact-checking there before you accuse Kay of not doing his research, Revelation. I'm not a great fan of his, but I would bet on his accuracy over George Martin's any day of the week.

Google the name Moses Maimonides. He was only one of four Jewish doctors at Saladin's court. I don't know if any of them were women, but I do know that Jewish women were often very learned at that period, and that some of them were, indeed, doctors.

Jews and Muslims have a checkered history. In some places and eras they were quite closely associated, and tenth and elventh century Moorish Spain was one of those places. Here's just a sampling from a Wikipedia article on the subject:

In the early 11th century, centralized authority based at Cordoba broke down following the Berber invasion and the ousting of the Umayyads. In its stead arose the independent taifa principalities under the rule of local Arab, Berber, or Slavic leaders. Rather than having a stifling effect, the disintegration of the caliphate expanded the opportunities to Jewish and other professionals. The services of Jewish scientists, doctors, traders, poets, and scholars were generally valued by the Christian as well as Muslim rulers of regional centers, especially as recently conquered towns were put back in order.

Among the most prominent of Jews to serve as viziers in the Muslim taifas were the ibn Nagrelas (or Naghrela). Samuel Ha-Nagid ibn Nagrela (993-1056) served Granada's King Habbus and his son Badis for thirty years. In addition to his roles as policy director and military leader (having been one of the only two Jews to have commanded Muslim armies — the other being his son Joseph), Samuel ibn Nagrela was an accomplished poet, and his introduction to the Talmud is standard today. His son Joseph Ha-Nagid also acted as vizier, and was murdered by Muslim rivals in 1066. Other Jewish viziers served in Seville, Lucena, and Saragossa.

I think you are wrong on several other points as well. Not that I'm trying to convince you to like what you don't like and not like what you do. Personal tastes require no justification. But in all fairness to Kay, he does do his research -- and there was more to the medieval period than torture, assassination, war, and bloody vengeance.

[murphy]

C.S. Friedman's The Coldfire trilogy. It could be classified as SF because the original people arrived there in a spaceship. But it's about a planet where your worst fears come to life. One of the main characters is a psychic vampire. Very good books. The first in the series is Black Sun Rising, followed by When True Night Falls and Crown of Shadows.

[wrave]

I really liked the Thomas Covenant series by S. R Donaldson. A pretty interesting sub theme as the hero, Covenant, has leprosy in the real world, a disease I knew little about before reading this series, but is a hero in the fantasy framework of the books.

[SpaceShip]

Can't think of anything at the moment wrave - but just thought I'd welcome you to the Chrons - if you can't find what you're looking for here - you won't find it anywhere!

[wrave]

Thanks SpaceShip. It's good to be here.

[Winter Lord]

Do you read all fantasy, or just High Fantasy?

[wrave]

Well, not to hijack this thread, I will read about anything. But I am not sure about the distinction between "all fantasy" and "high fantasy". I wonder if there is a discussion somewhere on the various genras?

[murphy]

For a good example of urban fantasy, read some of Charles de Lint's Newford books, such as The Onion Girl or Widdershins.

[Ragnar]

I'm no fantasy expert but you could give Robin Hobb's books a try. I hadn't read any fantasy for nearly 20 years but tried the first Farseer book (Assassin's Apprentice) on a whim - ended up reading the whole first trilogy in succession. Not the best books I've ever read but thoroughly enjoyable nontheless & I'm looking forward to reading some more.

[Revelation]

Hey alright a bunch of suggestions already, fantastic. Kep em coming and I'll try to check em out.

As for high fantasy vs fantasy, I'll read pretty much anything based on the middle ages, the ancient world, ranaissance, fiction or not. Lately I've been reading the autobiography probably going to read next:
Amazon.com: A History of the Crusades: Books: Steven Runciman

Originally Posted by Teresa Edgerton

I think you need to do a little fact-checking there before you accuse Kay of not doing his research, Revelation. I'm not a great fan of his, but I would bet on his accuracy over George Martin's any day of the week.

Google the name Moses Maimonides. He was only one of four Jewish doctors at Saladin's court. I don't know if any of them were women, but I do know that Jewish women were often very learned at that period, and that some of them were, indeed, doctors.

Jews and Muslims have a checkered history. In some places and eras they were quite closely associated, and tenth and elventh century Moorish Spain was one of those places. Here's just a sampling from a Wikipedia article on the subject:

In the early 11th century, centralized authority based at Cordoba broke down following the Berber invasion and the ousting of the Umayyads. In its stead arose the independent taifa principalities under the rule of local Arab, Berber, or Slavic leaders. Rather than having a stifling effect, the disintegration of the caliphate expanded the opportunities to Jewish and other professionals. The services of Jewish scientists, doctors, traders, poets, and scholars were generally valued by the Christian as well as Muslim rulers of regional centers, especially as recently conquered towns were put back in order.

Among the most prominent of Jews to serve as viziers in the Muslim taifas were the ibn Nagrelas (or Naghrela). Samuel Ha-Nagid ibn Nagrela (993-1056) served Granada's King Habbus and his son Badis for thirty years. In addition to his roles as policy director and military leader (having been one of the only two Jews to have commanded Muslim armies — the other being his son Joseph), Samuel ibn Nagrela was an accomplished poet, and his introduction to the Talmud is standard today. His son Joseph Ha-Nagid also acted as vizier, and was murdered by Muslim rivals in 1066. Other Jewish viziers served in Seville, Lucena, and Saragossa.

I think you are wrong on several other points as well. Not that I'm trying to convince you to like what you don't like and not like what you do. Personal tastes require no justification. But in all fairness to Kay, he does do his research -- and there was more to the medieval period than torture, assassination, war, and bloody vengeance.

That's all nice and good, but there's a difference between putting in an obscure counter-intuitive historical event in a book to make the book more interesting, and using that same event to moralize the reader.

And that's exactly what Kay has done. His jewish doctor is a beautiful, smart, compassionate Mary Sue character with a heart of gold that he uses to bludgeon the reader over and over again with his lesson of 'sex, race, and religion don't mean a thing, we're all the same on the inside, why can't we all just get along, hugs for everyone' Disney moral.

In contrast, George Martin's Brienne is also a very strange and counter-intuitive sight in his medieval world, a female knight-like warrior. But where most authors (including Kay) would write her as a feminist's wet dream Mary Sue character to teach the reader a lesson about how girls can be just as awesome as boys, Martin took the high road.

His Brienne is ugly, awkward, a little on the dumb side, but still ten times more interesting to read about than Kay's saintly jewess.

[vurtomatic]

I second the Hobb recommendation and also suggest C.J. Cherryh's Fortress series.