Hades' Daughter; March Discussion Title

[Brown Rat]

Originally Posted by Teresa Edgerton

Well, to jump start the discussion (maybe), and until someone turns up who actually likes the book, so that we have a chance to debate some good and bad points, I'll mention the one thing I did like.

The idea of a network of labyrinths, each at the heart of a great city, is very appealing. It really struck a chord. I'm not caring for the way she handles it, but I think it's a really fantastic concept to build a story around.

I agree. The book is an excellent example of how execution matters. In fact, I'm tempted to say, based on this one example, that execution matters more than the idea behind a book. I'd prefer to read a tired idea executed well than a cool idea executed poorly.

(I'm tempted to make puns that depend on the more violent meaning of "execute" to rid myself of Douglass's book.)

[ladyflorange]

I'm about half way and I'm actually really liking it so far, although I'm not really sure why. None of the characters are particularly appealing, but I like the general storyline, and I agree about the network of labyrinths thing. I really like that.

[Teresa Edgerton]

Originally Posted by ladyflorange

I like the general storyline

What is it about the storyline that you find appealing? To me, it seems that the plot depends far too much on characters behaving impulsively and irrationally (and Brutus, in particular, seems to be utterly clueless).

For me, the last straw was (spoiler follows, highlight to read):

Where Cornelia was going through such a difficult labor, and everyone around her was telling her not to make such a big deal about it -- if she would just calm down and let the midwives shift the baby, everything would be all right.

First of all, there would be no guarantee that they could move the baby. (How do they know the baby is in the wrong position, by the way, if she won't let them touch her?) Second of all, never in the history of womankind would midwives be so spectacularly insensitive and unsympathetic -- but particularly in an era when so many, many women died in childbirth. Thirdly, if they stopped telling her to snap out of it when she's in such agony, maybe she would trust them enough to let them try and do what they could.

It seems to me that instead of behaving like real women would in this scene, they're all trying especially hard to hype up the drama.

[ladyflorange]

I have to say I liked the idea of the Gods really. The characters were all annoying, although I did find myself warming slighly to Cornelia towards the end, but I think that generally they didn't inspire much emotion. I found it really easy to read though, and I liked the episodes from 1939, as I felt they gave the story more depth than it would otherwise have had.
I don't know though, overall it definately wasn't the best book I've ever read

[dsmith]

I found the part about the gods, and the labyriths very interesting, which is why I liked the book at first, but the characters got on my nerves so much I was almost hoping certain ones would die. I was intrigued by the short chapters that take place much later, but not enough to want to read any more in the series.

[ladyflorange]

I completely agree -I wouldn't read any more in the series the characters annoyed me waaaaay too much!

[Teresa Edgerton]

Originally Posted by ladyflorange

The characters were all annoying, although I did find myself warming slighly to Cornelia towards the end, but I think that generally they didn't inspire much emotion.

I think that is a very important observation. I've read books where otherwise unappealing characters won my sympathy, simply because the author was able to make me feel their pain, or empathize with some strong need. Here, the characters sometimes go through several different emotions in the space of a single page. Cornelia and Brutus spend a fair amount of time yearning after each other. And while all of this struck me as an obvious plea for the reader's sympathy, I never felt any of those emotions myself. They always seemed too false for me to buy into them.

Even one character whose emotions seemed genuine might have kept me reading (or at least skimming) to find out what happened to him or her. It wouldn't have changed my opinion of the book as a whole, because there were too many other things I didn't like, but I might have finished it.

The length was a factor, too. Since I didn't finish last month's book, I really wanted to do better with this one. But halfway through I thought, no, I can't continue on for another 300+ pages. There were a few things I was a tiny bit curious about, and I might have kept reading if the end had been in sight, but with so many pages ahead it was too much.

I know that she is a very popular author and that she has won many awards -- or maybe the same award many times -- so I'm sure she has written much better books than this one. Unfortunately, based on my experience here, I'm unlikely ever to read any of them. It would be interesting, though, to learn what it is she does so well elsewhere that is missing in this book, if anyone here knows.

Oh ... and regarding the labyrinth: Since an unicursal labyrinth always leads you back to approximately the place where you started, I wonder if this series is meant to bring the characters back to their beginnings in some way, at the very end. I might take a peek at the end of the last book to find that out.

[BookStop]

I'm 2/3 the way through and am sooooo tempted to put it down. I really hate this book and since I'm not alone.....

Why do I dislike it so much? Like Teresa, I feel the characters are too distasteful to be the sole force carrying the plot forward. I don't like Brutus or Cornelia. I thought Corneus and Blangan would bring tenderness to the charcters by example, but that didn't happen. If I never read about another birth, rape, or insestuous relationship again, I will feel blessed by the gods.

The idea behind the story is intriguing; a never-ending game played by the same small circle of gods. But execution is indeed tedious and offensive in more ways than I care to overlook. I feel Douglass set out to write an epic set of stories and overlooked plot and characterization.

[jenna]

Wow, seems like this one's getting a pretty big reaction! I'm about 100 pages through and loving it so far. I'm hoping I don't get to the same point of hating it that everyone else seems to have reached!

(And Theresa, I'll be looking out for the coal in my stocking! Although I just suggested it, others voted for it too!)

[Teresa Edgerton]

I said that about the coal when I was only about a quarter of the way through. At 300 pages, I'm afraid that I began to have far worse things in mind.

But if you can present us with some reasons you love the book that we can discuss, I may be willing to just settle for the coal.

[digs]

I read this book quite a while ago (and I've read the rest of the series since) and I have to say I loved it - I've reread it two or three times. I did find a lot of the characters unappealing at first, but I really came to empathise with Cornelia. I felt that, while a lot of the main players were bastards, I could always at least see their motivation. The tension-fraught relationship of Cornelia and Brutus kept me wanting to know how it'd turn out. I'm also just a sucker for Classical Mythology (although it's somewhat warped here) and Medieval history.

Then again, I'm also a big Sara Douglass fan. I'm used to her writing style, which is generally pretty dark, gory, and includes a lot of flawed, arrogant characters. I enjoy her character development and her artful twists and revelations (which is one reason I recommend reading at least the next 2 books after Hades' Daughter - there are a LOT of surprises in there). She does, however, tend to have a little trouble concluding her series in a satisfying way. She seems to be good at polarising her audience - a lot of people I've spoken to seem to dislike her writing, while a few absolutely love it.

P.S. I don't think whether the labyrinth is unicursal or whatever is the point so much. It seemed like more of a symbolic thing to me.

[Teresa Edgerton]

So then I take it the characters came to life for you, and their emotions felt authentic. Were there any particular scenes that you remember that really stood out, that drew you in?

For me, it was never difficult to understand the character's motivations -- if only because the author kept telling us what they were -- it's just that I didn't always believe that a real person would feel that way under the same circumstances. Especially the way Cornelia warmed to Brutus, after everything he had done to her family, and (spoiler, if anyone is still in the midst of reading the book) the repeated rapes.

I don't see myself reading on in the series to find out what the surprises are. I think I'm less impressed by twists and surprises than a lot of readers are. If they come, good, and if I feel they're achieved without undue manipulation of the characters or the readers, even better, but they aren't high on my list of desirable features in a story. Maybe because I've seen so many authors sacrifice good storytelling for the sake of setting up their surprises I'm a bit jaded on the whole subject.

[jenna]

Oops sorry for the late reply. I am still midst-way through the book, about 200 pages. I know, I'm going very slowly! Too much work and not enough play.. Teresa, the main thing I like about the book is the general plot, moreso than the characters. I'm fairly obsessed with history, so that's probably what has kept me enthralled. I think Sara Douglass has done a great job of bringing those parts and places in history to life for me. And while the characters are definitely not very sympathetic, I do feel like they fit in well with the periods. I have also been told the same as what Digs said, that the subsequent books get even better. My mother and sister are both up-to-date with the series and adore it.

[digs]

I guess I found the characters authentic. I think that I interpreted Cornelia's desperate attachment to Brutus as a consequence of her essentially childish nature. Her whole world was taken away from her, and her greatest chance at attaining even a fraction of the security and comfort she once had is Brutus. For her entire life (being the spoiled princess that she is) she's been attracted or connected to arrogant and powerful men, and maybe that comes through in her relationship with Brutus. She's also possibly rather unhinged.

I have to say, there's no one powerful scene that I can immediately recall, possibly because I read the book quite a while ago. Oh, I think I remember one scene, about halfway through the journey to Britain, where Cornelia and Brutus stand in some foreign land and actually interact like human beings. I did enjoy Cornelia's interactions with the natives, too.

Sorry, I put this badly when I said it before, but I don't recommend reading the next few books JUST to find out the surprises and twists :P Many of the twists involve very subtle character development, and it's not until reflecting that you'll realise there's been some profound changes. It's not clumsy and the story isn't sacrificed at all - I'd say the story is largely motivated by these character changes, but in a way that feels quite natural and unforced.

I think another reason that I really enjoyed the books is that, in the 2nd and particularly the 3rd instalments, the storyline itself becomes quite labyrinthine - not confusingly, but in a manner symbolic of how the characters have developed and their lives have led them down unexpected paths.

[Teresa Edgerton]

First of all (before I disagree with you) let me say that I very much appreciate, jenna and digs, your willingness to help me keep the discussion going.

Originally Posted by jenna

I'm fairly obsessed with history, so that's probably what has kept me enthralled. I think Sara Douglass has done a great job of bringing those parts and places in history to life for me.

I am also obssessive about history -- although this period is less familiar to me than some -- and for me this was a major area of disappointment. I felt that she didn't bring the era to life. Of course we all have different kinds of details that particularly resonate for us -- and she managed to miss all of mine. Except for the names and a scattering of familiar events -- and all those breast-baring Cretan jackets -- I never had any real impression that the story was taking place any specific era. I did, a few times, get a strong sense of the Mediterranean area, particularly in one scene where they were loading up the boats.

Compared to The King Must Die and The Bull From the Sea by Mary Renault -- books where I genuinely felt transported back to that time and place -- this seemed like a very poor effort. Or a somewhat obscure favorite of mine, The Dark Twin, by Marion Campbell, which is set in Bronze Age Britain. I felt that setting in my very bones; I could see and feel and taste that place as I never did Llangarlia.

But when I was in the library the other day, just for curiosity I picked up and looked at one of Douglass's other books -- don't remember the title but it was about Joan of Arc -- and in the few passages I read a much stronger sense of the period came through. So I do believe she has done that sort of thing better elsewhere. I also thought the dialogue was handled far more adroitly.