Which Heinlein book should i read next????

[j. d. worthington]

Well, the only reason I put out the caveats is because most people who enjoy Heinlein in general tend to have some reservations about those. Though I Will Fear No Evil had to grow on me as a whole, I did always like the humor; Time Enough for Love has always been a personal favorite -- though there I also caution because it really is better read as the capstone of the Future History series (well, until The Number of the Beast, The Cat Who Walks Through Walls, and To Sail Beyond the Sunset took that particular series even further).

Also, something I should have mentioned earlier, in connection with Stranger: Red Planet, though one of the juveniles, has some connections with that novel, both thematically (certain aspects of the philosophies explored, especially in relation to the Martians and immortality) and concerning the milieu -- thematically, Red Planet (or certain aspects of it) can be seen as a prequel to Stranger, while chronoligically (within the story) Stranger is a prequel to Red Planet! Also, thematically (immortality) Beyond This Horizon also has some similarities to certain aspects of Stranger in a Strange Land as well. (And now, darn it, I want to go dig my Heinlein out of storage and reread them.... )

[Razorback]

I appreciate the caveats, j.d. Heinlein seems to be a writer that many readers either love or strongly dislike. Although I read a fair smattering of Sci-Fi as kid, I did not discover Heinlein until after college. My first was Stranger in a Strange Land. I liked it, but I was not overwhelmed. Next, I read Time Enough for Love, which hooked me on Heinlein. I have read several of his latter works, but only a few of his earlier ones. I have not read any of the Future History before Time Enough for Love. I intend to remedy that at some point.

[Liz Pf]

Man ... the work I had to go through to log in! You'd think I never joined a forum before ...

Hello, all. I'm Liz, SF fan from 'way back. DH is a fan, too, and a very active member of our local SF club.

I've been a Heinlein fan since sneaking into my parent's bedroom to read my Dad's copy of Moon is a Harsh Mistress. I have definite opinions on RAH (who doesn't?), but they tend to be a bit different from everyone else's.

Originally Posted by chrispenycate

Um - do you think there are enough potential takers that we could get that T-shirt reprinted

Consider it being done! Well, I'm not able to reproduce it exactly, because 1) I've never seen it; B) copyright law. But I am beginning a t-shirt shop featuring Heinlein-inspired designs, and I'll put this one in. Look for it in the next couple days.

If he's chewed through "Stranger", and enjoyed it, probably not a short story person? I'd go for Mike and "the moon's a harsh mistress, myself.
And I quite enjoyed the number of the beast; more so in fact than the cat who walked through walls (no disparagement of our own trans-mural feline intended, evidently)

I'd suggest Moon for the O.P. Job wouldn't be a bad choice if s/he liked the religious aspects, and I think Friday is also an excellent choice. I'd stay away from the earlier novels, though, as they are much more "traditional", hard SF. Lots of non-SF fans are drawn to Stranger because of the social and religious aspects; they would not enjoy, say, Red Planet.

Anyway, expect to see me around from time to time. As a Professional Polymath, and full time Mom who tries to emulate Heinlein's uber-capable Moms, I don't have enough time to chat often.

--Liz

[engelbach]

The Puppet Masters. The best story about pods taking over humanity. Great tongue-in-cheek, tough-guy style, a la Dashiell Hammet and Raymond Chandler. Memorable archetypal characters. True sense of horror. The pace is breathtaking. And it's not preachy like some of his tiresomely overlong later works.

[Liz Pf]

Originally Posted by pyanfaruk

-on a t-shirt I once saw and have coveted ever since !

I didn't see my post come up yesterday, but I did design the t-shirt and put it up for sale ... I don't know if I can advertise here, though. I don't like marketing, but I do like design.

[TTBRAHWTMG]

It's great to see a 21 year old biting into Heinlein. I'm 35, and find that I am usually atleast a couple decades younger than most Heinlein fans I run into. Don't worry too much about what you pick next, they are all worth reading. I would avoid The Number of the Beast atleast for a little while though. Unusually flawed for Heinlein, and you have to be a secure fan to appreciate the value that is in there.
If you liked SIASL for its unique perspective and commentary on religion, definately try JOB, it will blow you away. If you appreciated the commentary on government interference, try Moon Is A Harsh Mistress. If you liked the sexual attitudes of the nests, try any of his Long family stuff, you'll love Maureen! If you just fell in love with the characters and their dialogue, don't worry, you'll fall for almost all of his characters (although Jubal will always be one of my favourites...Front!)
Bottom line...just make sure you pick up another Heinlein, period. Oh, how I envy you. So much unread Heinlein to bite into!

P.S. How do I get my hands on one of those T-shirts, Liz?

[j. d. worthington]

There are two I'd add a caution about, though I think they're still worth reading; but they're not nearly as good as Heinlein can be: Rocketship Galileo (1947) and Sixth Column (a.k.a. The Day After Tomorrow; serial 1941; book 1949). The first was his first juvenile, and is quite wobbly. Some brilliant stuff in there, and some that was definitely "written with his left hand", as it were. Sixth Column was written at the behest of John W. Campbell, and was a project Heinlein was less than enthusiastic about and, again, it shows....

[pyan]

Originally Posted by Liz Pf

Consider it being done! Well, I'm not able to reproduce it exactly, because 1) I've never seen it; B) copyright law. But I am beginning a t-shirt shop featuring Heinlein-inspired designs, and I'll put this one in. Look for it in the next couple days.--Liz

I doubt there would be any copyright restriction on the t-shirt design itself, because I'm pretty sure it was a "one-off - we print your own design" job. Whether or not the actual words themselves are still copyright - I don't know.

The design itself looked something like:

PANTHEISTIC
SOLIPSISM
RULES!
RAH! RAH! RAH!

Hope this is some help

[TTBRAHWTMG]

Originally Posted by j. d. worthington

There are two I'd add a caution about, though I think they're still worth reading; but they're not nearly as good as Heinlein can be: Rocketship Galileo (1947) and Sixth Column (a.k.a. The Day After Tomorrow; serial 1941; book 1949). The first was his first juvenile, and is quite wobbly. Some brilliant stuff in there, and some that was definitely "written with his left hand", as it were. Sixth Column was written at the behest of John W. Campbell, and was a project Heinlein was less than enthusiastic about and, again, it shows....

Glad you put the "still worth reading" in there...Galileo in particular. I found that one great for three reasons.
1/ You can read it in one sitting. Few hours and your done. It's like a Heinlein "snack" almost.
2/ Had some great science in it...agree a little wobbly in hindsight...but for 1947?
3/ I think this book really encapsulates a recurring theme of Heinlein's. Even discounting that it was a juvenile, this book demonstrated the tendency to underestimate the development and competency of our society's youth, and our tendency to undervalue the contributions that some of them are willing and capable of making.
I wish I had someone like a Cargraves in my life at their young age...an adult who actually showed respect for my intellect and abilities. I guess it could be argued that Cargraves was just using them due to his budget, but I think Heinlein's respect for young minds shows through regardless.

Your right though...definately "wobbly", and probably his least realistic depiction of an antagonist. His simplistic protrayal of Nazism would almost seem like an argument against his respect for young minds, but I think it was really more of a reflection of the times and maybe even his own personal fears..1947.

[j. d. worthington]

Well, I wasn't really referring to the science there; more the structure. It's an awkwardly structured book, in some ways; a bit angular, a definite "first" in the series, before he'd got the feel of the particular demands of a juvenile down.

But yes, I'd agree on his views about juveniles ... and why not? He was born in an era where there was still pioneering going on (as was Bob Howard) and very young children had often to take on roles that people today would simply not give them credit for being able to do... fending off hostile Indians, for one (Sul Ross, one-time governor of Texas, was doing such at age 7, for instance), or hunting, home doctoring, etc.... even aiding at birthing at that age. And, for my money, these kids were a darned sight healthier when it came to dealing with life in general because of it. Just as I think we do ourselves a disservice by distancing ourselves so much from death... it makes us more afraid of it, not less -- and certainly not as able to cope with the loss as those who dealt with the entire process themselves. We see such times as dark and barbaric, but they were considerably closer to the "fundamentals" of life than any of the so-called fundamentalists (religious or otherwise) today... and had a healthier respect for it in consequence, generally speaking. It also meant they were more sensitive to nuances than the bludgeoned generations of today, I'm afraid....

So, yes, wonky and wobbly... but still well worth reading...

[TTBRAHWTMG]

[quote=j. d. worthington;825220]Well, I wasn't really referring to the science there; more the structure. It's an awkwardly structured book, in some ways; a bit angular, a definite "first" in the series, before he'd got the feel of the particular demands of a juvenile down.

Not being much of a writer myself, I find it easier than most to overlook literary flaws. I am so focussed on the content and quality of the ideas the author is putting forth. Having said that, once I read the above, it rings true.

But yes, I'd agree on his views about juveniles ... and why not? He was born in an era where there was still pioneering going on (as was Bob Howard) and very young children had often to take on roles that people today would simply not give them credit for being able to do...

I am showing my ignorance here...never heard of Bob Howard...had to look him up. Tragic life by the sounds of it. Worth reading? Question though, if Heinlein's respect for young minds was a byproduct of his era, then what is the source of my own. I'm born in '71 and have been exposed to nothing but more and more government interference and coddling of youth. Look at toys alone. Most of the toys I played with as a kid are either illegal now or atleast frowned on, and I'm only 35. Going to have to do some thinking on this one.

Just as I think we do ourselves a disservice by distancing ourselves so much from death... it makes us more afraid of it, not less -- and certainly not as able to cope with the loss

100% agree.

We see such times as dark and barbaric, but they were considerably closer to the "fundamentals" of life than any of the so-called fundamentalists (religious or otherwise) today...

Not me...if anything I'm young enough that I've probably romanticized it and could probably use a dose of reality to put it more in perspective. I so often find myself wishing that I was born into a time where the population was sparse enough to not require identification...I'm sure you recognize the reference...and am so frustrated that I only missed by a generation, max 2.

[j. d. worthington]

Some very good thoughts here. Nice discussion. Okay... on Robert E. Howard... I'd say yes, a fair amount of his work is definitely worth reading; but try to find editions that go back to Howard's work, and leave behind those who have edited, "collaborated", or added to his stuff. Some of those are indeed enjoyable, some are even good... but most are at best watered-down versions of the real thing. Howard has his flaws, god knows, but for sheer passion and a sort of barbaric poetry (such as one might find in the early sagas or the eddas) he can't be beat. He was also keenly aware of the underlying tragedy of life, and his philosophy was very much that "barbarism is the natural state of mankind.... Civilization is unnatural. It is a whim of circumstance. And barbarism must always ultimately triumph." Now, if you combine that with the idea of the Greek philosophers that one can tell the level of civilization of a culture by the number of laws deemed necessary... I'd say Two-Gun hit it right on the head.....

Originally Posted by TTBRAHWTMG

Question though, if Heinlein's respect for young minds was a byproduct of his era, then what is the source of my own. I'm born in '71 and have been exposed to nothing but more and more government interference and coddling of youth. Look at toys alone. Most of the toys I played with as a kid are either illegal now or atleast frowned on, and I'm only 35. Going to have to do some thinking on this one.

And I don't think it was just it being a product of his generation. But he had practical examples surrounding him, as well as in very recent history that he would have had before him. That's something we're too distanced from to apply, in most cases... not to mention the fact that we seem to be damned determined to completely lose touch with our history at all costs.....

In your own (or any other individual's) case, it might well be because of those around you growing up, or your reading, or a combination of both. There are still people out there with that attitude (thank goodness!) but we seem to be distinctly in the minority....

We see such times as dark and barbaric, but they were considerably closer to the "fundamentals" of life than any of the so-called fundamentalists (religious or otherwise) today...

Not me...if anything I'm young enough that I've probably romanticized it and could probably use a dose of reality to put it more in perspective. I so often find myself wishing that I was born into a time where the population was sparse enough to not require identification...I'm sure you recognize the reference...and am so frustrated that I only missed by a generation, max 2.

Probably a bit of romanticising from both of us on this... though, in my case, I had a lot of relatives from that generation that I grew up around, and plenty of people who had done pioneering that I knew, and they did seem much more healthy and less neurotic than any generation since. They could be hard-headed as all get-out... but they could handle darned near anything life threw at 'em, too -- no matter how nasty -- and without having such trouble with it... even well into their eighties and up. So I'd say there's some definite truth to the idea. Also... as noted above, the fact that we're having to be ID'd to death, the fact that children are given scare tactics to teach them simple practical ways of staying safe (and who the heck ever said life was safe for any of us), to the point of often crippling 'em when it comes to dealing with the inevitable crises life will have; the crunching on personal freedoms, etc.... I'd say that those are all aspects that need addressing. And people are too prone to think that things are getting better there, or that it wasn't really that free back then. In some ways, they're right. But in the main... no. As any unbiassed look at history will show, we've been losing our freedoms at an alarming rate for over a century now, and not for any good reason... but rather to make the populace much easier to control. It's like children being diagnosed with various disorders and put on medication when, in the majority (not all) cases, they're just perfectly healthy, active youngsters who need an outlet for that energy. But they're a nuisance that way, so ... give 'em the meds -- all too easily, I'm afraid. (Genuine cases where it's needed, I've no problem with. But there is absolutely no way that the vast majority of kids need that; what they need is a healthy environment to be kids in, and we're doing a bang-up job of getting rid of that....)

Sorry. Off on a rant. But it applies to many of the issues Heinlein addresses in his work, so not totally off-topic, at least. Just a good deal broader than addressing the original question....

[TTBRAHWTMG]

Originally Posted by j. d. worthington

Okay... on Robert E. Howard... I'd say yes, a fair amount of his work is definitely worth reading; but try to find editions that go back to Howard's work, and leave behind those who have edited, "collaborated", or added to his stuff.

In your own (or any other individual's) case, it might well be because of those around you growing up, or your reading, or a combination of both.

Sorry. Off on a rant. But it applies to many of the issues Heinlein addresses in his work, so not totally off-topic, at least. Just a good deal broader than addressing the original question....

Thanks for the Bob Howard recommendation. I've got good relationships with several quality used book stores and am certain I can get my hands on originals.

I'm not your typical Heinlein fan...atleast not compared to the ones I've met. I spent the first 16 years of my life surviving. Unfortunately not the exciting dangers that Heinlein protaganists face, but the more insidious abuse and neglect stuff...not "Daddy spanked me and read the newspaper" but the real headline making stuff. Enough about that, bottom line...as a young man with no direction or positive influence I turned to drugs and crime to salve my wounds.

By 18 I had hit bottom. From my little cell, I sat and thought about my life. For the first time in years I was sober enough to start to think clearly. For the first time in my life, I CHOSE to stop feeling sorry for myself, and realized that regardless of my youth, I was now an adult and the only one responsible for the consequences of the choices I made from here out. This wasn't taught to me...it was an innate understanding. To make a long story short, that marked the turning point in my life. Oh, I fell on my face plenty of times after that...1 step forward, 2 steps back...and still do occasionally.

It was shortly after this time that I ran into Heinlein. His recurring theme of personal responsibility that you referred to in another thread is part of what instinctually drew me to him. It was his respect for young minds and his ability to wrap his ideas in fast paced and often humourous plots, that helped solidify the relationship. Besides, Thorby really had it bad...who was I to feel sorry for myself? One passage really hit home...Maureen and her Father discussing her own commandments...I sat down and wrote out my own and have been living by them ever since.

My life has been a struggle for personal improvement, and especially a deep desire to not perpetuate the cycle. I work hard to recognize, understand, control, and eliminate drives that were planted in my youth. It became of utmost importance to me to "heal" myself to atleast a point where I could ensure my relationships, especially with my wife and children, did not mirror those I had witnessed and experienced in my youth.

Heinlein became like a father/professor to me. Much of what I have read outside of Heinlein was inspired by him and a need for better understanding of ideas that he presented to me. Either that, or inspired through discussion with another Heinlein fan. Better educated, more widely read, and "healthier" Heinlein fans became like auntuncle/professors to me, whether they meant to or not.

I say all this only to expain why my posts often reflect oversight of literary flaws...why I am such a rabid Heinlein fan...why I haven't read many works that are considered general knowledge by most...why I am so interested and focussed on what makes ME tick...why my arguments and insights into Heinlein are often one dimensional...and why I appreicate "rants" like yours.

[Razorback]

Originally Posted by j. d. worthington

As any unbiassed look at history will show, we've been losing our freedoms at an alarming rate for over a century now, and not for any good reason... but rather to make the populace much easier to control. It's like children being diagnosed with various disorders and put on medication when, in the majority (not all) cases, they're just perfectly healthy, active youngsters who need an outlet for that energy. But they're a nuisance that way, so ... give 'em the meds -- all too easily, I'm afraid. (Genuine cases where it's needed, I've no problem with. But there is absolutely no way that the vast majority of kids need that; what they need is a healthy environment to be kids in, and we're doing a bang-up job of getting rid of that....)

I agree with your observations about the tendency to medicate children when it’s not really necessary or appropriate. Some of the “professionals” recommended Ridilin for my son when he was young. He may have has a mild case of ADHD or something similar, but nothing that required more than a little patience at times. I’m glad I was pigheaded enough to resist the drug suggestions. My son has thrived without them.

I don’t fully agree that some of our modern loss of freedoms or anonymity is “not for any good reason” in all cases. I think greater population densities and vulnerabilities inherent in a high-tech society make some of the losses or reduction necessary, although regrettable.

[j. d. worthington]

Originally Posted by TTBRAHWTMG

Thanks for the Bob Howard recommendation. I've got good relationships with several quality used book stores and am certain I can get my hands on originals.

Actually, that's precisely what you don't want to do; not if you want Howard the way he wrote it. It's actually the more recent editions, such as those from Del Rey, that are disencumbering Howard of all the encrustations that have gathered about his work over the past 70 years. There are some others, such as Wildside Press, that are going back to the original magazine versions, and a British edition of the complete Conan that went back to Howard's original mss. (including fragments, etc.). Those are well worth investing in, and the majority of them are fairly cheap. The old Lancer/Ace paperbacks (as fond as I am of them, for they are how I first read most of Howard's stuff) are chock-full of unnecessary editing, alterations, stories by various other hands, and non-Conan stories that de Camp revised into Conan stories for the series.

On your other statements, all I can say it: Congratulations! and Good for you! You've been down a very rough road, and come to a realization that few do. You are to be commended for taking responsibility for yourself.

On Heinlein being your "professor"... I'm always reminded of something Robert Bloch said about HPL: "Lovecraft was my university", for much the same reasons. Joshi has agreed. I'll add my voice in there, as well. So no need to be apologetic about this devotion to RAH; from what I understand, the man was a genuine gentleman in person, and there are much, much worse role models to take. I'd just caution you to read him critically (something I do do with HPL, though many might dispute that ); this helps to keep him in perspective, and still to learn the lessons he has to teach, without losing one iota of respect for the man or his work. (An unnecessary caution, perhaps; but useful nonetheless.)

Razorback... perhaps; but I'm quite dubious about that assertion; certainly taken to the levels it has been. A certain amount of liberties we may have to compromise on, but this wholesale abandonment of them... no. That is for no reason other than to make a populace that is much easier to manipulate. Divide, keep ignorant, and disempower, and they are conquered for life. As Heinlein said, "Mighty little force is needed to control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked"; and that's a process that's been in high-gear for quite some time now....