Not so important connections

[Boaz]

Mesanna, I doubt that Ghost deserves that punishment.

YS, that keeps the door slightly ajar that Melisandre has deluded herself into believing Stannis is AAR when all evidence points to the contrary.

[Keebs411]

So on break @ work today u decided to skip around in the A Wiki Of Ice and Fire. i like to go through and search out smaller connections i may have missed cause we all know there is so much information to take in through out the series so far its hard to retain it all with out some refreshers

Well todays skip around was in going through the kingsgaurd. This was after Tywin did an immaculate job with the challenge Boaz set in the triva threat regaurding the KG matching their names with their deeds, So i eventually found myself all up in the Dayne family history, and i come upon Ashara.

She is rumored to have had a fling with ned. rumored to be jons real mother (im all in for r+l=j theory myself). She jumped, presumed dead (no body found, but ill even go with she died.) Now Selmy recalls that Ashara killed herself because she gave birth to a stillborn daughter. That a Stark bedded her at the tournament of Harrenhal and got her with child. Ashara was full of grief after the death of her child and shame for the way Stark dishonored her, which led to her suicide... SOOOO NOT NEDS STYLE!! how ever whos to say it wasnt a stark? What about his Brother Benjen?

*Benjen attended with his siblings the @ Tourney of Harrenhal (he was there same time as ned, same time the r/l love was "blooming")

*During Robert's rebellion the wiki says Benjen was probably in Winterfell....nothing confirms this. But being that Asharas brother is KG for the king during this rebellion and Ben's brother is considered an enemy im sure being on opposite sides didnt make things easy if indeed he was the Stark Ashara was involved with.

*He joined the Night's Watch shortly after the rebellion/war ends for reasons unknown.... Ashara (if with child miss carries) and then jumps to kill herself around this time.... with all that and Ben blamed himself i could see him going to the wall as a result of his poss guilt or grief.


sorry if this has already been brought up i just found it interesting

[Boaz]

Keebs, I've always wondered why Ben took the Black? Mayhaps as the third son, he seriously considered it from a young age, but after Brandon's and Lyanna's deaths Eddard might have wanted Ben's support. In an early Jon chapter of AGOT (I think), Jon thinks of joining the NW, but never considers that as futures for Bran or Rickon. Jon assumed Bran and Rickon would hold keeps in Robb's name. Why did Benjen join, but Bran and Rickon won't? I dunno, but I've never gotten any good ideas on Ben's taking the Black.... so Ashara is as good as any.

Barristan's memories are important. In addition to the memory you mentioned, does he not remember Ashara as the great love of his life? He could not publicly pursue her because he was of the Kingsguard.

What if..... Barristan and Ashara consumated their love? Imagine Barristan planning to ride out with Rhaegar to their deaths.... Imagine Ashara losing the man she loves and knowing the war will go badly... If Aegon was smuggled out of KL, then Ashara, as Elia's maid, certainly knew of it. Elia and Ashara knew that Rhaegar was not confident about confronting Robert's army. Imagine them spending one night of passion before saying good-bye forever. Imagine Eddard bringing Arthur's sword to Ashara... Eddard, her first love who was already married and who slew her brother, bringing home the sword and news that Barristan, her second love and the father of her unborn child, was severely wounded and likely to die... Then she lost her child and jumped.

Now rethink the scenes in AGOT where Eddard and Barristan meet. Did Barristan want to smash Eddard's face?

What if Quaithe is Ashara in disguise? Barristan and Quaithe are both desirous of seeing Dany on the Iron Throne... Could they finally come back together twenty years after being seperated?

[Mesanna]

Isn't there also a theory that Brandon Stark was the one who got Ashara pregnant? I can't recall all the details, but I've definitely read about that somewhere.

[Keebs411]

Yes there was the theory of brandon as well....... o the possibilities.

Boaz im going to have to do some heavy brain picking on mr. Barristan and his chapters and danys as well for the times he was giving her anew updated summery about her family hiatory and the days before the last war...... oooooo i love a good time of playing westori detective lol.

[Rufio]

I think the smart money is on Brandon being the wolf that dishonoured Ashara, as Selmy thinks of it. He's established a a bit of a wild man and someone who liked the ladies too.

My own speculation on Benjen is that he played some part, or at least had prior knowledge, of Rheagar and Lyanna running away together, and ended up on the wall because of that, as punishment and to keep him out of Robert's way if it ever came out.

I don't have anything from the text to back that up right now, if there even is anything.

[juleska]

Originally Posted by Boaz

Keebs, I've always wondered why Ben took the Black? Mayhaps as the third son, he seriously considered it from a young age, but after Brandon's and Lyanna's deaths Eddard might have wanted Ben's support. In an early Jon chapter of AGOT (I think), Jon thinks of joining the NW, but never considers that as futures for Bran or Rickon. Jon assumed Bran and Rickon would hold keeps in Robb's name. Why did Benjen join, but Bran and Rickon won't? I dunno, but I've never gotten any good ideas on Ben's taking the Black.... so Ashara is as good as any.

Barristan's memories are important. In addition to the memory you mentioned, does he not remember Ashara as the great love of his life? He could not publicly pursue her because he was of the Kingsguard.

What if..... Barristan and Ashara consumated their love? Imagine Barristan planning to ride out with Rhaegar to their deaths.... Imagine Ashara losing the man she loves and knowing the war will go badly... If Aegon was smuggled out of KL, then Ashara, as Elia's maid, certainly knew of it. Elia and Ashara knew that Rhaegar was not confident about confronting Robert's army. Imagine them spending one night of passion before saying good-bye forever. Imagine Eddard bringing Arthur's sword to Ashara... Eddard, her first love who was already married and who slew her brother, bringing home the sword and news that Barristan, her second love and the father of her unborn child, was severely wounded and likely to die... Then she lost her child and jumped.

Now rethink the scenes in AGOT where Eddard and Barristan meet. Did Barristan want to smash Eddard's face?

What if Quaithe is Ashara in disguise? Barristan and Quaithe are both desirous of seeing Dany on the Iron Throne... Could they finally come back together twenty years after being seperated?

I never thought about why Benjen took the black, this is a good potential explanation.

That said....I have huge problems with all the different theories around Ashara Dayne....maybe someone can help me clear this up. The timeline doesn't seem to work for me.

We know that Ned is in his mid-thirties in AGOT. We know that Barristan the Bold is jokingly called "Barristan the Old", and I believe we learn he is in his 60s or 70s when Joffrey dismisses him. There's a point in AGOT where they state he's won tourneys against men 30 and 40 years younger than him. I don't know of anyone who enters a tourney at younger than 15, if that, so we can safely assume he is, at minimum 55, but I think the implication is that he's in his 60s.

So we know that Barristan was in love with Ashara, and we know that she "looked to a Stark" at Harrenhal. Benjen is the younger brother, and the youngest of Ned's siblings as well.

If we assume (or do we know?) that Robert and Ned were in their late teens at Harrenhal, and Barristan is, at minimum, 20 years older than Ned (I think 30), that means you have 55 year old Barry competing with 20 year old Ned for Ashara who is....somewhere in the middle? Or you have a 55 year old Barry competing with a 14-16 year old Benjen for a late-20s/early 30s Ashara? Doesn't make sense.

The Stark that Barristan refers to must be Brandon......or, Ned's father, or perhaps an uncle that we're overlooking? If it is Brandon, that could be another reason Ned was so sensitive about Catelyn asking if Ashara was Jon's mother. Introducing the question of whether or not Ashara had an affair with one of the Stark men could've brought forward the point that Ashara was makin' whoopie with Brandon at a time that Brandon was engaged to Catelyn.

But I do have to wonder why Benjen took the black.....and he even made that remark to Jon that he should wait until he's fathered a few bastards of his own before he makes his mind up about his vows. That said, not a lot of guff has ever been made about Benjen taking the black, but one thing that has often been stated is that the Night's Watch used to be an honorable calling, where men of great houses sacrificed much to serve the realm. But now it's seen as the dumping ground for the unwanted scum of the realm. When Benjen took the black, I think it was still more the former than the latter. I can't recall any hints or discussions that Benjen dishonored himself in any way and *had* to take the black. In fact, House Stark is one of the few houses in the realm that has *always* supported the NW. I assumed that Benjen took the black because he was the youngest brother and stood no chance of holding any great role for his house....so that was his way of making his mark on the world.

[Tywin]

Originally Posted by juleska

That said, not a lot of guff has ever been made about Benjen taking the black, but one thing that has often been stated is that the Night's Watch used to be an honorable calling, where men of great houses sacrificed much to serve the realm. But now it's seen as the dumping ground for the unwanted scum of the realm. When Benjen took the black, I think it was still more the former than the latter. I can't recall any hints or discussions that Benjen dishonored himself in any way and *had* to take the black. In fact, House Stark is one of the few houses in the realm that has *always* supported the NW. I assumed that Benjen took the black because he was the youngest brother and stood no chance of holding any great role for his house....so that was his way of making his mark on the world.

I've always thought the easiest and most likely explanation is that because Benjen was too young to participate in the great rebellion that removed the Targaryens he joined the Night's Watch to win his own honor and fame. Better that than to live in the shadow of his older brothers the Martyr and the Hero of the realm.

[D.A. Madigan]

Ser Shaedrich reminds me of Reepicheep from The Chronicles of Narnia.

[Young stormlord]

This one is in ADWD: There are 3 Freys that start going to the "Arya" 's wedding but never arrive. There are 3 wedding pies filled with pork on the wedding. And very, very drunk Manderly asks from Mance Ryder to sing about the Rat Cook after all the guests except for "Arya" and Theon eat of them... *wink wink, nudge nudge*

(Edit: yes, I know it's an old connection. I just wanted to R'lorr's kiss this thread)

[Young stormlord]

Here's a very minor connection.

R'lorr's priests have the ability to fill themselves with the holly fire then give the last kiss to dead servants of their god. It didn't work for a long time but it started working again with the hatching of the dragons. Oddly enough, so far only red-headed people were returned from dead. (Lord Berric had copper-coloured hair. Catelyn Stark was a redhead and so was Robb and Thoros told Brienne that they would have returned him to life if he kept his head on).

Now, wildlings have a very interesting belief that people with red hair are born very lucky and are extremely hard to kill. They call them "kissed by fire".

Thing is, the way Thoros explained the ressurection process, that's exactly what he is doing: kissing people with fire! So, I think that 8.000 years ago, when original Azor Ahai was alive, red priests were fighting together with wildlings against Others, but they could only ressurect redheaded people. It remained a folk tale after 8000 years and a name: "kissed by fire".

P. S: Bran, Rickon and Sansa are also redheads. Arya is not.

[Eversummer]

One thing I'm pretty sure about Ser Barristan MF Selmy is not the father of Lady Ashara's unborn child.

Nice observation, YS. Yeah, all of them are redheads. Let's summon all Weasleys here.

[juleska]

Originally Posted by The Imp

I would NOT want to be on Arya's list

"Faceless" Arya killing Cersei as "Tyrion".

Delicous.

This just moved to the top of my ASOIAF Wish List.

[joshrackley]

But wouldn't that mean that Tyrion would have to be dead and have had his face removed for Arya to wear it?