Was Joff really the target?

[Young stormlord]

Originally Posted by MOUNTAIN THAT READS

AHHH but Cressen took a drink then almost instantly died. Joff took a drink made a speech had some pie then choked. The time frame is off. (of course I agree with all of you and think Olena poisoned Joff on pupose, but I thought Ned was the hero so I could be wrong, and we needed a new topic)

Cressen was alive long enough for Melisandra to say "He has a power here. And fire purifies" before Cressen died.

[Boaz]

Originally Posted by Culhwch

Maybe he just plain choked. Pycelle carries out the autopsy, finds a sliver of pigeon bone lodged in Joff's throat and, knowing that Tyrion would cop the blame - Tyrion, who had humiliated him so - he hid the proof and pointed to poison.

Not saying I believe this. Just putting it out there.

Even with your new avatar, Cully, you are suggesting the authorities dispensed with real evidence to frame an innocent man? Tsk, tsk.

MTR, your tenacity in sticking with the larger political machinations and implications has me starting to doubt what GRRM has laid before our eyes. I don't yet believe your suggestions, but I'm going to post as if I do... maybe I'll convince myself.

First, we know that Littlefinger is a master of lies. He jumped on the dragonbone daggar story to implicate Tyrion when he knew neither of them had anything to do with it. Why would he not throw suspicion off of himself and onto Olenna? He knows stupid Sansa will believe anything.

Second, we assume (we think we know) that GRRM is a master of smoke and mirrors. The unmatched number of conspiracy theory threads on the Chronicles Network confirms this. No offense to any of the other posters on this thread, but your dogged (and commendable) defense of the obvious explanation that GRRM gives us only makes me think that he's given us a red herring. I don't think GRRM will change this plot line with Deus Ex Machina, I think he'll logically explain how Littlefinger lied.

Third, Tyrion has proven capable in using power, yet he's been consistantly irritating to Tywin. He grasps the overall picture of how to help Tywin, but constantly tries to grate on his nerves. Tywin might think that Lancel or a younger Lannister might be more open to heeding the Hand's wishes. Tywin also knows that when he passes, Tyrion could be a serious threat to Cersei and her children. Tyrion could be a very welcome scapegoat in Tywin's eyes.

Fourth, Tyrion keeps seeking clues for the truth. The last two hands found the truth and so had to be killed for it. Tyrion knew about the dragonbone blade. Tyrion was serving as Master of Coin at the time of his downfall. Was Tyrion about to uncover the lies of the last Master of Coin, aka Littlefinger? Was Littlefinger worried about Tyrion gaining too much power over him by learing too many of his secrets?

Fifth, Baelish buys people and then pays them with death. Littlefinger bought Lord Jon's squire, Hugh. Ser Hugh of the Vale promptly died an accidental death. Littlefinger bought Ser Dontos. Upon delivery of Sansa, Dontos was quickly murdered. According to this theory, a chef (and most likely a serving man/woman) was bought by Littlefinger, does anyone recall in AFFC of any servants of the Red Keep dying accidentally?

Incidentally, Littlefinger also bought Janos Slynt, but Slynt did not die because he was needed. And Littlefinger did not pay Slynt with his own money, he paid Slynt from the treasury, I assume.

Hmmm, I kinda like this theory of yours MTR. But like all the theories I like, it does not have any concrete facts to support it... I mean it all makes sense, conecturally speaking.

[Young stormlord]

Originally Posted by Boaz

Fifth, Baelish buys people and then pays them with death. Littlefinger bought Lord Jon's squire, Hugh. Ser Hugh of the Vale promptly died an accidental death. Littlefinger bought Ser Dontos. Upon delivery of Sansa, Dontos was quickly murdered. According to this theory, a chef (and most likely a serving man/woman) was bought by Littlefinger, does anyone recall in AFFC of any servants of the Red Keep dying accidentally?

The only servant dying I can recall was Cersei's servant Senella who was spy for Margery. Any1 else maybe? How about Tenna?

[TomServo]

Originally Posted by MOUNTAIN THAT READS

AHHH but Cressen took a drink then almost instantly died. Joff took a drink made a speech had some pie then choked. The time frame is off.

Keep in mind that Cressen was a frail old man who could barely make it up and down the stairs on his own and Joffery was a strapping young lad. His constitution was probably able to hold off death just a little longer than Cressen's was, so a small time difference isn't much to go on.

[Young stormlord]

Cressen was alive long enough for Melisandra to say "He has a power here. And fire purifies" before he died. That is long enough for me.

[DeannaBelle]

Originally Posted by Culhwch

Maybe he just plain choked. Pycelle carries out the autopsy, finds a sliver of pigeon bone lodged in Joff's throat and, knowing that Tyrion would cop the blame - Tyrion, who had humiliated him so - he hid the proof and pointed to poison.

Not saying I believe this. Just putting it out there.

Pycelle wouldbe wise to eliminate Tyrion. Tyrion's too sharp for the old measter.

However, wasn't it Tyrion who ordered the pie? I would be down with the pie-that-killed theory except that it was Tyrion who ... Wait, no, is was Cersei, wasnt it? Anyway, who ordered the pie and who baked the pie are two different things. Another thing is the only reason I can give for the Tyrells leeting their dear Margaery marry that little brat is because they knew they wouldnt have to contend with him for long.


Also, I dont trust a word Petyr says. I dont believe eveything went according to his plans as he would have Sansabelieve. He just tries to build himself up in her mind.

[Aegon the Unworthy]

I like the theory...

The times it takes to take effect is a non-issue, strength of concentration, the happenstance of volume consumed, and constitutions of the afflicted are too mecurial for anything definite to be ascribed from Cressen vs Joff.

Petyr had to know something was afoot with the poison, he knew about Sansa's hair net and he knew Olenna touched, and he was the one that told her to wear it. Thats what was in the goblet....

So maybe its a big bit of misdirection on his part. But I dont know how it would be possible to know about it without being a part of the planning.