Pate, Gregor & Loras....alive or dead? (lol..or undead?)

[Young stormlord]

About Waters...
Lannisters army is at the Riverlands. I guess they haven't sent any soldiers with Loras, Martin doesn't say anything about it. He just says that Waters moved Loras to Dragonstone to take control of Redvins fleet and soldiers. Can som1 post anything to confirm this or not?

[KiwiBird]

Originally Posted by devilsgrin

His loss to combined forces was nothing to be proud of. King's Landing was virtually undefended - save only by the gold cloaks and the token Lannister forces not committed to fighting Robb in the Riverlands, and Stannis' navy was by far the largest in eastern westeros. For him to have been so royally walloped means he messed up badly. The Rose only joined the battle after it was all but decided anyway. Tyrion had for all intents and purposes won the battle with the fire-oil-stuff (what was it called again?).
Not positive about whether he still holds Dragonstone - evidence could lean either way, but i hadn't heard he'd lost Storm's End as yet. Though with its token garrison, i would certainly not be able to hold out for as long as Stannis himself held it for.

You must have read it differently then i did, yes Tyrions defense was good, BUT Stannis could NOT have attacked differently AND KS would have fallen if it where not for the appearance of the Rose and the Lion.

The goldcloaks where bassicaly defeated at that moment (also they consist of 5000 folk wich is not at all little, and Tyrion had led the bulk of the remainder of the troops out in a last attempt to hold stannis off. Stannis would have taken KS if the troops(Lion and Rose) had not arrived at that particular moment. Even so, ithe fact remains that that was his ONLY notable defeat, and that he has won several important battles in his life.

Wether he holds Dragonstone is a questionmark, but i rather believe the intell Littlefinger got then the intell cersei got. So for me Dragonstone still stands, He holds Storms End (after having it retaken, wich is a mean feat, it does not really matter how he did it - shadowbaby, to the outside world it still is a huge victory), and after his defeat at the blackwater, he has made a wise decision going to the wall. In AFFC we do not know much of that part of the world, but to me it is clear he is proabably establishing a powerbase to be reconned with there. Moreover Dragonstone is strategically very important, and the fact that he holds Storms End still is of great importance as well, it is not a castle wich one can take lightly, and he still has influence to the nobles there.

Stannis is atm a safe bet, cause the Lannisters are crumbling, the Rose is uncertain, though we do know certainly that they are beseeched at the moment by the Ironborn. The north is a mess atm, and the Boltons as of yet have not enough control there. Riverrun is a hotbed for trouble as well, i doubt the Lannister Frey will control it for long. And Dorne well, it has bassicaly closed its borders since Robert got the Throne, and are plotting against all those who claim the throne for anyone besides Targaryens in the long run.

[KiwiBird]

Originally Posted by Young stormlord

About Waters...
Lannisters army is at the Riverlands. I guess they haven't sent any soldiers with Loras, Martin doesn't say anything about it. He just says that Waters moved Loras to Dragonstone to take control of Redvins fleet and soldiers. Can som1 post anything to confirm this or not?

The mean bulk of the lannister army went with daven and jaime to riverrun, the rose went to storms end and Dragonstone, but i highly doubt there is not at the very least a token army of the Lannisters at both. Especially at dragonstone, strategically extremely important.

[leoj826]

i think you presume too much about dorne. Martell is playing the game of thrones for himself and no one else. he only want to marry into the throne. while viserys was alive that was a great plan for arianne, but that all changed. so what if dany falls for someone else, then does dorne proclaim for myrcella?

[KiwiBird]

Maybe Martell does not truly care about the marriage, but more about an alliance with Dany, so they can have their vengeance for Elia, the Red Viper and the children. With Old Barry there it might just happen

[devilsgrin]

thats possible... but personally i agree with leo... the Martell's are playing the game for themselves and for the autonomousness of Dorne. A part of the seven kingdoms yes, but the most independent part by far. Myrcella will be their trump card if their dany plots don't go well, as technically by dornish law, Myrcella was Joffrey's heir not Tommen - granted thats not the case in the rest of Westeros, but its enough for the dornish and anyone who ends up siding the same way. Doran is very clever. he has attractive children to pair with all the viable monarchs...and he's willing to play those cards to his kingdom's advantage.

[KiwiBird]

Martells for me are working for themselves, but Doran wants to bring veangeace upon the murderers. The best way to do that at the moment is with an alliance with Dany - or so I believe.

I am confused though with what u mean of having plenty of beautiful children to work with. Doran only has 2 children, The sand snekes are all bastards after all.

[devilsgrin]

no he has three... arianne his heir, quentyn - off to visit Dany and tristane - paired with Myrcella - three kids, thats plenty for Doran to work with.

[KiwiBird]

ah yes forgot about trystane.Still three is okay, but not that many when you realize those 4 are so far the only Legit Martells that we have knowledge off that remains. Even the Starks have as many left.

[Young stormlord]

Lets get back on the theme shall we?

[Gazz]

Has nobody ever considered the possibility that it's not unGregor but unSANDOR we're going to be dealing with?

Did Sandor slump to near dying on a road near enough to Harrenhall for Master Qyburn to bump into him (forgive me if my ASOIAF geography is way off here, i'm too lazy to check and too apathetic to care) and if not, could a Lannister grunt / sympathiser have found him and returned him thence as prisoner, only for Qyburn to have his wicked, necromantic way?

I can't believe that anything is ever going to be as simple as 2 + 2 in GRRM's world, I just can't see him using Gregor as his monster, when he's spent so much time humanising Sandor only to cruelly strip that away again in his next book. I suspect that Qyburns work might not have the desired effect though - or maybe i'm just too fond of that thing from the Goonies to not wholeheartedly desire an homage with Sandor as the monster, and Sansa as that chubby kid.

[TK-421]

WTF

That would be a crappy end for one of the best characters of the series.

[Raven]

Originally Posted by Gazz

Has nobody ever considered the possibility that it's not unGregor but unSANDOR we're going to be dealing with?

Did Sandor slump to near dying on a road near enough to Harrenhall for Master Qyburn to bump into him (forgive me if my ASOIAF geography is way off here, i'm too lazy to check and too apathetic to care) and if not, could a Lannister grunt / sympathiser have found him and returned him thence as prisoner, only for Qyburn to have his wicked, necromantic way?

I can't believe that anything is ever going to be as simple as 2 + 2 in GRRM's world, I just can't see him using Gregor as his monster, when he's spent so much time humanising Sandor only to cruelly strip that away again in his next book. I suspect that Qyburns work might not have the desired effect though - or maybe i'm just too fond of that thing from the Goonies to not wholeheartedly desire an homage with Sandor as the monster, and Sansa as that chubby kid.

Highly unlikely. Sandor is presently on the island that Brienne visited, for a start.

[Corto]

Honestly, as much as I liked Hound as an intrigueing character, you always have the feeling he and Gregor will be harder to kill off than Eddard or Robb or some of the good guys.

Just because the books are so large, if you knock of the main melee villains, you're robbing yourself of possible plots.

So that's the issue I have with the Clegane brothers, predictable in it's unpredictability.

[devilsgrin]

and of course, theres the inevitable and much anticipated showdown between the pair of them. I would love to see Sandor vs Gregor! Its got to happen.