Who/What exactly represents ice and fire?

[ras'matroi]

I'm sorry if this was discussed before.

GRRM must have aimed at something when he chose the title A Song of Ice and Fire.

I think the song part means something like an interaction with hormony and disharmony in it. (probably it could be something like a bardic tale but I don't think it likely)

What do you guys think represents fire and ice?

Is it the North ( Stars and bannermen) against the South (Lannister and company)?
Stark colors: blue, grey, white (ice)
Lannister colors red, gold (fire)
That seems a bit too simple because this theory does not include all the other houses (Dorne is in the south but certainly not a Lannister supporter)

Could it be aimed at the Others (standing for ice) and the Dragons (Targaryen, standing for fire)
Both beeing a thread to Westeroes.

It could also be the Starks against Dany. (but then Lannisters are neither on Dany's nor the Starks side)

Could you imagine that at the end there are just two parties/coalitions left to fight each others? (if all the others got wiped out)

Another possibility is that ice and fire stands for two single persons. (Jon, Dany)
Who of the other characters that suvives till the end would end up on what side?

Any Thoughts on this?

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Jon......the answer is Jon. He is the song....why? Because he is the product of Rhaegar Targaryen (fire) and Lyanna Stark (Ice)......

There are multiple possibilities and I can make an argument for a lot of em...but I think the most apt meaning is simply Jon.....

Thank you, Thank you.....have a good day....

[Lacedaemonian]

I would absolutely agree with Aegon on this.

[Wiggum]

The best theory is what was said above, but I think the idea of ice and fire relates to several things in the books and isn't limited to just the possibility that Jon may be the joining of Stark and Targaryen. A la R'hllor vs the Old Gods of the North and several things you mentioned in your intitial post.

[KiwiBird]

The way i see it it also has to do with the lands of everwinter (beyond the wall) and the lands of summer (old Valyria)

a balance between the two, for example it was said that when the dragons dies out the winters became longer and harsher

[Werthead]

Or it could be a reference to Aegon Targaryen (the would-be Aegon VI), of whom, as Rhaegar says in A Clash of Kings, "His is the Song of Ice and Fire."

Of course, Baby Aegon is dead...or IS HE?

Otherwise 'Ice' is a reference to the Great Other and 'Fire' is a reference to R'hllor, two equally unappealing gods and their religions. Or possibly to Jon and Dany. Or to Ned's sword and Azhor Azhai's sword.

It should be remembered that, although well-supported, there are a few obstacles in the path of the R+L=J theory, just enough to make it a bit suspect.

[Boaz]

I suspect that Mr. Martin wants to the theme to play on a number of levels.

In my opinion, the Song is the interplay between two opposites. Ice and Fire are fairly distant upon the spectrum of temperatures. I've never read any other of Martin's works. Neither did I ever view the 80's TV show Beauty and the Beast which Martin was supposedly heavily involved in creating and writing. But, (Oh, for heaven's sakes Boaz! If you never saw the TV show, then shut up already!) my rememberance of the show was that it was about changing your conceptions about others (obviously that goes to the heart of the old fairy tale) and stopping to see other people's hearts and motivations.

I think Martin is still doing this in ASOIAF. The story starts with the Starks as the heroes and the Lannister as the villains. But after Robb insults the Freys, Stoneheart kills everyone she can find, Tyrion saves King's Landing, and Jaime reveals that also saved King's Landing we find our expectations of the old tried and true fantasy/mythology plot is changing with every POV. Martin likes to play Three Car Monty with our calculated formulas and self-righteous prejudices. Stark or Lannister... who has honor and who reneges?

I think the Song is the process of striving to see both sides of the coin... Ice and Fire, Stark and Targaryen, North and South, Other and R'hllor, phlegmatic and passionate... Jon and Dany, Dany and Arya, Jaime and Brienne, Euron and Asha, Littlefinger and Lysa, Stannis and Loras, justice and mercy, honor and expedience, the needs of the many and the needs of the few, sacrifice and concesssion, loyalty and rebellion...

When the Song is over will the ends justify the means?

I don't think Martin wants us all rooting for the same side. In probably almost every story ever told, the author gives perspectives, behaviors, scruples, and decisions by the protagonist that the reader agrees with and the opposite for the antagonist. Martin, imo, is trying to mix our views of who the protagonists and the antagonists are. He's trying to get us to look at his characters from both sides... first, because he likes to shake the status quo, and second, because he's really working hard at creating believable characters and he's drawing attention to them.

In the Indiana Jones movies, did you cheer for the Nazis? No.

In Rocky, did you cheer for Apollo Creed? No.

In The Lord of the Rings, did you cheer for Sauron? No.

Authors always pick a side and they want us on that side also.

In the Chronicles forum on Tolkien, is there a favorite character thread? I'd be surprised if there was'nt. But, I'd bet money the choices are limited to the members of the Fellowship, their friends, their families and their allies. No one claims that Shagrat and Gorbag are their favorite characters.

In the Martin forums, we have favorite character threads. But the choices range from Stark to Lannister to Greyjoy to Targaryen. We have taken sides. Martin has taken great care to make us care and relate to diverse characters. The interplay in the minds and souls of the characters reflects the title of this series.

I'll shut up now.

[Weasel Soup]

Boaz that was singlehandedely the best case for Martin ever.

ASOIAF is to quote another fella: Human all too human.

[KiwiBird]

well a song in itself consists of many layers....

[Culhwch]

Originally Posted by Boaz

I suspect that Mr. Martin wants to the theme to play on a number of levels.

In my opinion, the Song is the interplay between two opposites. Ice and Fire are fairly distant upon the spectrum of temperatures. I've never read any other of Martin's works. Neither did I ever view the 80's TV show Beauty and the Beast which Martin was supposedly heavily involved in creating and writing. But, (Oh, for heaven's sakes Boaz! If you never saw the TV show, then shut up already!) my rememberance of the show was that it was about changing your conceptions about others (obviously that goes to the heart of the old fairy tale) and stopping to see other people's hearts and motivations.

I think Martin is still doing this in ASOIAF. The story starts with the Starks as the heroes and the Lannister as the villains. But after Robb insults the Freys, Stoneheart kills everyone she can find, Tyrion saves King's Landing, and Jaime reveals that also saved King's Landing we find our expectations of the old tried and true fantasy/mythology plot is changing with every POV. Martin likes to play Three Car Monty with our calculated formulas and self-righteous prejudices. Stark or Lannister... who has honor and who reneges?

I think the Song is the process of striving to see both sides of the coin... Ice and Fire, Stark and Targaryen, North and South, Other and R'hllor, phlegmatic and passionate... Jon and Dany, Dany and Arya, Jaime and Brienne, Euron and Asha, Littlefinger and Lysa, Stannis and Loras, justice and mercy, honor and expedience, the needs of the many and the needs of the few, sacrifice and concesssion, loyalty and rebellion...

When the Song is over will the ends justify the means?

I don't think Martin wants us all rooting for the same side. In probably almost every story ever told, the author gives perspectives, behaviors, scruples, and decisions by the protagonist that the reader agrees with and the opposite for the antagonist. Martin, imo, is trying to mix our views of who the protagonists and the antagonists are. He's trying to get us to look at his characters from both sides... first, because he likes to shake the status quo, and second, because he's really working hard at creating believable characters and he's drawing attention to them.

In the Indiana Jones movies, did you cheer for the Nazis? No.

In Rocky, did you cheer for Apollo Creed? No.

In The Lord of the Rings, did you cheer for Sauron? No.

Authors always pick a side and they want us on that side also.

In the Chronicles forum on Tolkien, is there a favorite character thread? I'd be surprised if there was'nt. But, I'd bet money the choices are limited to the members of the Fellowship, their friends, their families and their allies. No one claims that Shagrat and Gorbag are their favorite characters.

In the Martin forums, we have favorite character threads. But the choices range from Stark to Lannister to Greyjoy to Targaryen. We have taken sides. Martin has taken great care to make us care and relate to diverse characters. The interplay in the minds and souls of the characters reflects the title of this series.

I'll shut up now.

Or perhaps he just thought it sounded cool.

[Funky Cthulu]

Originally Posted by Boaz

In the Indiana Jones movies, did you cheer for the Nazis? No.

In Rocky, did you cheer for Apollo Creed? No.

In The Lord of the Rings, did you cheer for Sauron? No.

No one claims that Shagrat and Gorbag are their favorite characters.

Authors always pick a side and they want us on that side also.

Actually, whilst I'm sure the majority of people probably didn't, I cheered for the Nazis. I didn't hate Indiana, but he was never the snappy dresser the Nazis were. And I wanted to see what would happen if they won. I was young at the time and knew very little about WW2, in my defence.

And actually, I do know of one dude who really identified with the Orcs - Varg Vikernes, the black metal dude from Norway, currently doing time for murder. He donned the name Count Grishnackh (a reference to an Orc soldier) and claimed the elves in Tolkien's novels were snobby, elitist Jews and the Orcs were the manly, earthy pagan Germanic warriors. Or something like that - he had a bit of a beef with Tolkien, and tends to come out with odd statements from time to time. If you don't listen to metal, this probably has no relevance.

Still, I've cheered for quite a few bad guys in my time - not because they were complex and interesting, like GRRM's characters (excluding the Mountain) but just because they had the coolest one liners.

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Good post Boaz. Jokes aside....good post

(Heck yeah I rooted for Apollo Creed. Carl Weathers is da man!)

But I didnt root for Drago, "The russian is cut, the russian is cut!"

[MOUNTAIN THAT READS]

I rooted for Rocky right up until he made that speech after knocking out Drogo. When I have a choice between, can't we all just get along, and I must break you. I think the wrong guy won. Of course this is completely off topic so I will be quiet.


(sneaks to a corner to try to think of something clever to say) (Barristan freakin Selmy? .......no already done.....hmmmm)

[MemmoN]

I figured it out! Jon's mother is Lyanna and his father is Arthur frickin Dayne!! Tahts why ol Arty went the distance for his beloved, if rhaegar was Lyana's love he would have been at the tower defending her...maybe.

[MemmoN]

when Ice and fire meet they cancel each other out, I expect Armagaedon at the end with bran and the children picking up the peices of our lives and moving on...