Novel length problems...

[Mandorin Anamor]

Hey guys, im very knew to this site, to the extent that im not even sure if this is the right way to post a new thread - also my first forum!
But anyhow, Ive just finished the main bodywriting of my first novel, and am starting out on the long process of editing and evaluating it all before hopefully sending it off to an editor who actually knows what hes doing.
I was just interested in a little advice...
So far, reading through alot of the conversations on the publishing board, Ive noticed people discussing the length of fantasy novels and how they affect the likelihood of getting a publishers attention. The opinions Ive noticed so far seem to be that the average size of a fantasy novel is approx 100,000 words, to 150,000 words and I notice some of the moderators using these amounts as though this is a long novel.
This has me a little worried, as my novel has concluded at 280,000 words (not through any attempt at longevity, its just how the story happened). Now am I right in thinking this is way too long for a first novel, and would dash my hopes of being noticed, or should I consider keeping at this length, or should I think about splitting it in half and using it as a duology with two volumes of approx 140,000 words. (this would be quite viable, and I aslo remember reading somehwere on the site that a series or trilogys are much more welcome by publishers.
I apologise for the lenght of the question, but it is somethign that ahs been bugging me, any advice or words of wisdom would be greatly appreciated.

[Saolta Oiche]

Hey, welcome to the site.

I see what you are saying.

I am kind of in the mind of sod if they don't like it. I am not too up on word count averages but I always thought 300 odd pages was the average.

What advice springs to my mind is....

If the book is as long as it is because that is how the story goes then cool so be it. If you cut it up to meet someone else's preferances then you lose the spirit of the novel, after all it is your soul in there in a way. That is me being moral and stubborn.

The spliting it into two is a better idea but only if the one whole novel is not accepted.

So don't chop it up, try with what you got. If we all did it 100,000 - 150,00 word novels how boring would the world be? Remember genius follows no one.

If they don't like what you have to offer then screw em, they ain't worth it!

But as I said I am stubborn, I don't suppose I helped too much there just had to express myself there. I love my book so much (it isn't published or any such) that I won't change it to any drastic degree for anyone.

I hope that helped somehow. :-)

All the best luck to ya!!

[John Jarrold]

Well, publishers have to work within parameters - and obviously, it costs more to produce a longer book, which leads to a conversation with the financial director. I've had plenty of them over fifteen years! Commercial writing is a business and many wonderful authors are happy to work within parameters and still produce terrific books. If you're not, don't expect publication any time soon. Sure there are geniuses - but not many.

Might be worth seeing if there is a point, roughly halfway through, that you could break the story. The Lord of the Rings is, after all, a three-volume novel, rather than a trilogy...

[SJAB]

Originally Posted by Saolta Oiche

But as I said I am stubborn, I don't suppose I helped too much there just had to express myself there. I love my book so much (it isn't published or any such) that I won't change it to any drastic degree for anyone.

Ouch! I suppose at some point I shared that view, but I have learned my opinion about my work is not always the best one. Yes, I love my work, but I know that the suggestions of someone else can make me change it for the better.

I have been recently trying to sell a short story I thought was perfect,(it wasn't of course) but thanks to the comments on the rejection I received from one editor, I managed not only to alter it, but found the right target market for it. It is now sold, not for a huge sum, but for a fee. Yet, I know the 2,500 words will be edited by the publisher that has bought it before it is published.

It is part of the process when selling a story/novel.

As for length, I too suffer from being too verbose in my work. Of my efforts out there agent/publisher seeking, only one is in the so-called target length being 95,000 words. Two others I know I have to get the word count down ready for the next round of submissions.( It is all part and parcel of catching the agent/publisher's attention) One has already dropped from 220,000 to 180,000, but needs to lose more. The other needs to drop from 160,000 to about 130,000-140,000. Cutting the word count is not always about losing, it is often about making sharper, of using the words in a better way.

[littlemissattitude]

Honestly, I think I'd wait until the editing and rewriting process is farther along before worrying about word-count. It does sound like you've gone long, based on what our published writers and other industry professionals have said here, but your word count could change substantially (up probably wouldn't be as good, but it could go down as well) in the editing process.

Also, I'd suggest being brutally honest while doing your editing. Is every scene, as now written, absolutely necessary to the advancement of the story? Keep in mind that just because you are fond of a scene, that does not necessarily mean that it is essential. Are your characters communicating or declaiming? Communicating is good, but declaiming probably. Are your descriptions descriptive or over-descriptive? If you find that you are describing everything down to the last little detail, there are likely places you could make cuts. Those are just a few things you can look at in trying to pare down your manuscript into a more manageable length.

I hope this helps. I make what money I do as a non-fiction rather than as a fiction writer, so you can take these suggestions for what they are worth, but I make them as someone who has read a lot of fiction over the years.

[Mandorin Anamor]

Thanks guys, your replies have been a great help. I didnt expect such a response, this is a truly helpful site. hope to speak with some of you in the future, will get down to work with the pointers you've supplied.
Tim

[Saolta Oiche]

All the best and good luck.

[John Jarrold]

Originally Posted by Saolta Oiche

All the best and good luck.

Absolutely! It's a long road to mainstream publication, so very best wishes.

[apokalypsis]

The Great Stephen King says he has to cut at least 10% on every novel he writes to sharpen it up. (Source: On Writing: A Memoir of the Craft -- which has been one of the most encouraging books out there, in my humble opinion.)

[the_faery_queen]

i agree, edit it first, then see how it stands. i cut mine. it was 270k, i split it, and even once it was split, i still edited more away. it didn't loose any heart, it's the same book, it's just more saleable now.

but if you dont' want to cut it, or donm't know where to split, you could try saying in your letter, my novel is long but im ok to cut it. as long as you appear flexible i think publishers will still be interested.

[SpaceShip]

Originally Posted by the_faery_queen

i agree, edit it first, then see how it stands. i cut mine. it was 270k, i split it, and even once it was split, i still edited more away. it didn't loose any heart, it's the same book, it's just more saleable now.

but if you dont' want to cut it, or donm't know where to split, you could try saying in your letter, my novel is long but im ok to cut it. as long as you appear flexible i think publishers will still be interested.

I do the same - stick everything in that comes to mind and then cut, cut and cut again - like SK says - it becomes more sharp! But then it would, if you keep cutting it eh?

[the_faery_queen]

yep tho i ddi worry i'd cut it away to nothing! you can take editing too far

[Mandorin Anamor]

Heh, im losing and gaining words one each chapter ive re-written so far, with a general loss of 500 words per chapter. so with all the chapters edited at that rate (baring in mind this is only the first re-write) i should decrease the word count by roughly 30,000 words or so. though I am still consideirng splitting it into two volumes, or as you guys say, making my willingness to do so clear.
well its all a little confusing at the moment. the work flow at uni is steepening, editing epic fantasy whilst trying to grapple with imperfect cadences, jazz standards and altered exotic modes is a little mind disentegrating.
as always, thanks for the help.

[apokalypsis]

Originally Posted by apokalypsis

The Great Stephen King says he has to cut at least 10% on every novel he writes to sharpen it up. (Source: On Writing: A Memoir of the Craft -- which has been one of the most encouraging books out there, in my humble opinion.)

[How egoistic is that? Quoting oneself! Good heavens!]

I since discovered that when SK went to publish The Stand (circa 1978), his publisher forced him to cut 400+ manuscript pages, and it was still a huge book. The reason for the cut wasn't editorial; the finance department was worried about the cost of all that paper, and books that long couldn't be counted on, yada yada.

I just happened to accidentally order the complete and uncut edition, due to a killer sale at Barnes & Noble online, which had that funny story. (12 years after The Stand became one of his most-beloved novels, he was allowed to republish with a bunch of the previously excised content -- which fans had apparently been demanding.) I guess when I get through my current stack of books and read it, I'll see if I think the extra 500+ hardcover pages were a good idea or not. (But I have to read Dracula & The Historian first.)

[KID A]

What I discovered is that an agent is usually going to be more worried by the tightness of the manuscript than the actual page/word count. That is to say, if your novel is 300,000 words of well-edited, planned and paced literature, I don't think any sensible agent would hesitate to pick it up. However, some books only contain 100,000 words worth of valuable material, and thus to make the manuscript any longer would merely be stretching it out and, consequently, shooting the writer in the foot. I speak on personal experience here as I have recently picked up an agent for a manuscript that is just over 450,000 words long (hopefully that's of some comfort!). However, there will be intense tightening of the manuscript as it feels too drawn out, meaning a 25-30% cut-down. Yet even then, I am collaborating to add in some carefully planned extra material that will really bulk up the manuscript and add a lot of depth and pace, which may even push it over 500,000 words. This almost undoubtedly means dividing the manuscript up, yet at the end of the day if you can honestly say it is a sturdy, well-written and paced novel, theoretically word count shouldn't be an issue.