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Old 14th September 2007, 12:43 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Re: The White Council

Well for starters, the five wizards roaming Middle-earth.
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Old 14th September 2007, 01:08 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Re: The White Council

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Originally Posted by Rinion View Post
Gandalf's power has been measured against Durin's Bane, the "strongest and foulest of Sauron's minions",
And died!
"Naked I was sent back- for a brief time, until my task is done"

If he was sent back, surely this means there was something more powerful that Gandalf himself to do so. - this can only have been Iluvitar himself - who normally would not intervene.

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Gandalf really 'died', and was changed: for that seems to me the only real cheating, to represent anything that can be called 'death' as making no difference... He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or govenors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back- for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'.
: Letters - 156

My point is that the Balrog was as powerful, at least, as Gandalf.
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Old 14th September 2007, 09:50 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Re: The White Council

Though i am not in anyway saying that Gandalf is weaker than the witch-king, but the witch-king did break gandalf's staff during their minor confrontation in Minas Tirith... and as their staves are the symbols of the power of the itarii one could conclude, that originally a man or not, the Witch King is undoubtedly one of the most powerful beings in Middle Earth.

Though to say that Gandalf was the most powerful being in Arda would possibly an exaggeration. Many of the first eldar are still alive, and their power would be considerable. Tolkein saying so doesn't make it canon, as papa tolkein was occasionally contradictory and often changed the meanings of things in later letters, etc...
For Gandalf the Grey to have fallen to Saruman proves that in the least Saruman the White was his then equal - though clearly more cunning by far.
Sauron without the ring may have been weak, but he would certainly have been more powerful than Gandalf. Gandalf against the Balrog did include a ring as well recall. the word Minion is key also... rarely are minions more powerful than their masters unless they are grossly stupid... and the Balrog being a demon from the earliest days of arda is unlikely to be stupid.

Bombadil was master of his domain, tho i wonder what that power would be outside of it.


As to other potential council members i would most certainly include Celeborn, Glorfindel would be there naturally... he is reputed to be the most powerful elf in Rivendell... aside from Elrond with his ring, and he was quite a figure in the wars with Angmar especially.
Thranduil seems likely as well. Erestor would possibly have had a seat due to his association with Elrond and Cirdan, and of course his reputation as highly wise. Gildor ... who knows... we really only see him as little more than a warrior... but given his age its likely he would have had his own share of knowledge and wisdom to contribute.
I'd also agree that the current chieftain of the Dunedain would be there aswell...as aside from elven scouts, the dunedain seem to be chief agents of the council's will.
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Old 14th September 2007, 11:40 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Re: The White Council

To add a tidbit of information to the discussion of Gandalf's power...:
I am sure you're all aware of the fact that Saruman and Gandalf are Maiar. And that Sauron was one, too. And that the Balrog - as unlikely as it may sound - is the same as them. The Balrog - imo - is not a minion of Sauron's. He is a minion of Morgoth like Sauron.
Thus, it seems safe to assume that they're all more on the less the same on the power scale.

And though Gandalf perished during the battle with the Balrog - keep in mind that the Balrog was destroyed, too, which suggest some equality in power, too.

~Sira - who unfortunately has no idea who could have been on the White Council and thus will stop furthering the ninja'ing of this thread.
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Old 14th September 2007, 05:52 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Re: The White Council

Unfortunately, JRRT never actually told us of the exact composition of the White Council - but it's been discussed at length in other fora, and the general consensus is:

Saruman, Galadriel, Elrond, Gandalf, Radagast, Cirdan, Celeborn, Glorfindel and Erestor (with Thranduil possibly there as a guest as well, as he would be concerned with the path of anyone fleeing from the attack on Dol Guldur)
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Old 14th September 2007, 06:19 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Re: The White Council

it has never made any sense to me to consider the complex nature of a person's or character's "power" as a simple scalar value, reducible to "who can beat up whom."
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Old 14th September 2007, 07:46 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Re: The White Council

Definitely remember reading somewhere that Aragorn was part of the Council. This agrees with devilsgrin's theory a little bit
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Old 14th September 2007, 09:31 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Re: The White Council

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirathiel View Post
To add a tidbit of information to the discussion of Gandalf's power...:
I am sure you're all aware of the fact that Saruman and Gandalf are Maiar. And that Sauron was one, too. And that the Balrog - as unlikely as it may sound - is the same as them. The Balrog - imo - is not a minion of Sauron's. He is a minion of Morgoth like Sauron.
Thus, it seems safe to assume that they're all more on the less the same on the power scale.

And though Gandalf perished during the battle with the Balrog - keep in mind that the Balrog was destroyed, too, which suggest some equality in power, too.

~Sira - who unfortunately has no idea who could have been on the White Council and thus will stop furthering the ninja'ing of this thread.
I thought Gandalf defeated Durin's Bane but died later due to exhaustion. If that's true, Gandalf technically won because he outlasted the opponent.
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Old 15th September 2007, 01:57 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Re: The White Council

He might of died from exhaustion, we don't know. All I know is that isn't the topic of the thread.
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Old 15th September 2007, 09:41 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Re: The White Council

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Originally Posted by devilsgrin View Post
Though i am not in anyway saying that Gandalf is weaker than the witch-king, but the witch-king did break gandalf's staff during their minor confrontation in Minas Tirith... and as their staves are the symbols of the power of the itarii one could conclude, that originally a man or not, the Witch King is undoubtedly one of the most powerful beings in Middle Earth.
Uhg, that is in the movie. Please. It never happened in the book, and I highly doubt it ever would.

And Gandalf -was- more powerful then the Balrog; first of all, he is masking his true power during the fight, or at least is supposed to be. Second of all, he is 'already wearied' due to the spell he cast prior to the fight and the flight from the orcs. I think that Gandalf at his true and best would be able to slay the Balrog, and maybe escape with his life.

And, it is true enough that the Balrog might not have served Sauron's purpose wholly because of his insane power. However, that was a direct quote from the book and I was putting it there to show just how powerful he was, and therefore how powerful Gandalf was.

Also, reread that passage you put down again. Gandalf was -changed-, he was made better, stronger, possibly wiser. That means he is now much stronger then the Balrog, or it is assumed such.

Quote:
Though to say that Gandalf was the most powerful being in Arda would possibly an exaggeration. Many of the first eldar are still alive, and their power would be considerable. Tolkein saying so doesn't make it canon, as papa tolkein was occasionally contradictory and often changed the meanings of things in later letters, etc...
For Gandalf the Grey to have fallen to Saruman proves that in the least Saruman the White was his then equal - though clearly more cunning by far.
Sauron without the ring may have been weak, but he would certainly have been more powerful than Gandalf. Gandalf against the Balrog did include a ring as well recall. the word Minion is key also... rarely are minions more powerful than their masters unless they are grossly stupid... and the Balrog being a demon from the earliest days of arda is unlikely to be stupid.
-sigh- The eldar's power is waning. Even Galadriel admits this, and there is no question about it. This is the reason they are moving west. And, if the author says something about his books, I'm pretty sure it's canon. It's like in real-life: many tales to one story, eh?

And, god, this is ticking me off. Sauron's ring was not one end-all, powerful, godly ring that bestowed one with super-awesome powers. Nor is LoTR like Dragonball Z where everyone has a power level. The ring was made for one purpose: to dominate the -will- of all free races. To control the magic rings given to the leaders of those races. Sauron with the ring would be just like Sauron without the ring: he would hide like a wimp in Barad-Dur and wait for the orcs to slaughter the world while using his power over the three rings to corrupt their users.

Sauron, although a Maia, isn't a warrior. This has been hotly debated and I firmly believe that Sauron is just as frail as Gandalf would be. In fact, he lost his true form and can only take up a host as a form, and I'm positive this limits him greatly.
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Old 16th September 2007, 04:59 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Re: The White Council

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Originally Posted by Rinion View Post
Uhg, that is in the movie. Please. It never happened in the book, and I highly doubt it ever would.

And Gandalf -was- more powerful then the Balrog; first of all, he is masking his true power during the fight, or at least is supposed to be. Second of all, he is 'already wearied' due to the spell he cast prior to the fight and the flight from the orcs. I think that Gandalf at his true and best would be able to slay the Balrog, and maybe escape with his life.

And, it is true enough that the Balrog might not have served Sauron's purpose wholly because of his insane power. However, that was a direct quote from the book and I was putting it there to show just how powerful he was, and therefore how powerful Gandalf was.

Also, reread that passage you put down again. Gandalf was -changed-, he was made better, stronger, possibly wiser. That means he is now much stronger then the Balrog, or it is assumed such.



-sigh- The eldar's power is waning. Even Galadriel admits this, and there is no question about it. This is the reason they are moving west. And, if the author says something about his books, I'm pretty sure it's canon. It's like in real-life: many tales to one story, eh?

And, god, this is ticking me off. Sauron's ring was not one end-all, powerful, godly ring that bestowed one with super-awesome powers. Nor is LoTR like Dragonball Z where everyone has a power level. The ring was made for one purpose: to dominate the -will- of all free races. To control the magic rings given to the leaders of those races. Sauron with the ring would be just like Sauron without the ring: he would hide like a wimp in Barad-Dur and wait for the orcs to slaughter the world while using his power over the three rings to corrupt their users.

Sauron, although a Maia, isn't a warrior. This has been hotly debated and I firmly believe that Sauron is just as frail as Gandalf would be. In fact, he lost his true form and can only take up a host as a form, and I'm positive this limits him greatly.
The eldar's power in Middle Earth is waning true, i was howerver referring to the Eldar in other parts of Arda... in 'The West' for instance.
The One Ring was bound up with much of Sauron's power. He sacrificed a large portion of his power to create it, hence losing his form when he was defeated and it was taken by Isildur.
That Gandalf (Olorin) is a maiar is not something i have forgotten, perhaps you have forgotten that the Valar limited the powers of those maiar sent to Middle Earth as the Istarii - primarily so as to avert their use of power to control and confront the Enemy directly.

It is my opinion that following his death in battle with the balrog (with the importance of his tasks, i can hardly see Gandalf willingly limiting himself in a battle with a Balrog), when he was sent back - presumably by the valar, their limitations were removed, strengthening him beyond Saruman, and the balrog also most likely (had there been a re-match). Still, considering his vast powers, Gandalf still never confronts Sauron directly.
Sauron, in my opinion, would have learned a great deal while servant to Morgoth. Nowhere have i read that he was possessing beings whilst stripped of his physical from.
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