The Caledonii

[Foxbat]

I've just read an article on The Caledonii (I think that's the right way to spell it) and how the Romans said there were too many trees beyond Hadrian's Wall and, therefore, not worth the bother.

This historian claims that the forest was a lame excuse and the Romans were just too scared to come and have a go because they just weren't hard enough. Therefore - Hadrian's Wall is officially my favourite part of the Empire (and the guy that wrote about this my favourite historian)

[I, Brian]

I think the Romans just didn't like the miserable cold and wet at the "end of the world".

Claudius certainly wasn't interested in taking the issue too far, and Augustus had clearly warned about extending the boundaries of Empire - best to hold what you have, then expand. This was very much taken to heart.

Actually, Septimus Severus decided he was going to exterminate the Caledonii to a man, but as he marched his armies up the UK, he dropped dead at York. His two sons were too concerned with fighting for surpremacy and general easy living to care much for military campaigns.

And I'll split this as a new topic.

[Rane Longfox]

Poor bloke. And York is the only city you're allowed to shoot scotsmen in... Ironic

I can't believe that after taking the south, the romans would stop at the wall just because of a warning against expansion. I mean, its kinda stupid leaving a tiny little bit at the end of the island un-concquered, is it? Maybe they were scared?

[I, Brian]

I don't believe that they realised Britain was as relatively small as it was, and anyone who cared to know either didn't care enough to go a roamin', else died before they could.

Constantine Chlorus was another Roman "Emperor" who died at York - the father of Constantine the Great, who decided that Diocletians edict of 4 Emperors for an Empire was 3 too many for himself.

[PenDragon]

In AD 79 Gnaues Julius Agricola reached the river Tay and defeated the Caledonian tribes within four years, leaving the whole of Britain pretty much conquerd. Heavy Roman defeats in the Danube in AD 88 forced the Romans to withdraw part of their Army from Britain and the northern forts were abandoned. By AD 120 they had withdrawn to the Tyne-Solway line and started building Hadrian's wall. The main purpose did seem to be boundry marking (Hadrian also did the same in his eastern Empire but with wooden walls) based on the fact that the Empire was already unweildly.

As soon as Hadrian died in AD 138 his succesor Antoninus Pius marched the legions north and reconquerd southern Scotland building the Antonine Wall at the narrowest part of Scotland, the Forth-Clyde isthmus. As soon as he died they pulled back to Hadrian's Wall.

The Romans went North a few more times ( 208 and 211) and right up until the withdrawl in the 4th century were still sending military expeditions North against the Picts.

The main thing about both Walls is that they were not really defensive structures as we would understand them. Their main purpose was to house troops and enable them to go north in strength and face any enemy in open battle where the Romans excelled. At any given time they also had occupied forts North of the walls (The number varied reaching a low point of just 4 by AD 200).

The Caledonians and other tribes such as the Maetae, rebelled every so often (even managing to cross the wall and cut down a general in AD 180) but the Romans did what they always did, ruthlessly crush anyone who rebelled with a Darth Vader like "Kill them, kill them all!" style policy.

Besides have you been to the Highlands in winter? I wouldn't fancy it in a toga and sandals.

[I, Brian]

Thanks for the reply PenDragon - much appreciated.

[The Ace]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

I don't believe that they realised Britain was as relatively small as it was, and anyone who cared to know either didn't care enough to go a roamin', else died before they could.

Constantine Chlorus was another Roman "Emperor" who died at York - the father of Constantine the Great, who decided that Diocletians edict of 4 Emperors for an Empire was 3 too many for himself.

The Romans knew Exactly how big Britain was, they were probably the first people to recognise that Britain was an Island and certainly the first to navigate it. To the other points in this thread, there are two frontier systems in Scotland, the first-century Gask Ridge and the later Antonine Wall. Eastern Scotland is dotted with Roman camps atleast as far north as Aberdeenshire (one of the possible sites of Mons Graupius.

[The Ace]

sorry, I meant Circumnavigate

[I, Brian]

Quite right, The Ace - I've been catching up on my Scottish history since then. I think the story is of Agricola sending the ships around just to see if Britain really was an island or not. The map is somewhat off, but at least showed it to be an island. Apparently they noted a "city" somewhere along the Moray coast, that apparently hasn't been idenitified - though it's interesting to note that a few centuries later the Picts were running a major town at Burghead.