Homophobia?

[Nesacat]

I'll second that. Unless reasonably qualified to do so, those in the limelight for one reason or another should refrain from using that platfrom to express views on topics they have absolutely no clue about. Whether they realise or acknowledge it, they have the capacity to influence people who might then make choices harmful to them or others.

As for the the books and movies, I decide based on the book or movie itself and not the beliefs of the writers or actors. I live in a country where all of Steven Spielberg's movies are not shown because he made Schindler's List and Khalil Gibran's Prophet is banned simply because of the word 'Prophet' in the title.

Yes, there are things we all believe and do not believe in but as far as books go I think they deserve to stand on their own merits. It's curious how not much of a fuss is made if the characters or the writer is homosexual.

[Cloud]

some good points here, and I tend to agree. I don't vet my author's personal philosophies before I consent to read their books, nor am I bothered excessively by actors' political or social views.

Except that . . . art, be it writing, acting, or fine art, is the ultimate expression of the human soul, so when the art is experienced, you take in a little bit of the artist. If the artist is a bigot, well, you absorb a little bit of that, whether it's the overt intention of the creator, or not.

[steve12553]

Originally Posted by Cloud

some good points here, and I tend to agree. I don't vet my author's personal philosophies before I consent to read their books, nor am I bothered excessively by actors' political or social views.

Except that . . . art, be it writing, acting, or fine art, is the ultimate expression of the human soul, so when the art is experienced, you take in a little bit of the artist. If the artist is a bigot, well, you absorb a little bit of that, whether it's the overt intention of the creator, or not.

That works for me too. I'm usually so naive that I don't see an agenda within a work (book; movie) I just don't like to see any sort of artist express an agenda within an interview promoting a book or movie to an unsuspecting audience. ("we had to spend two day in the water to shot that scene and Oh, by the way vote for Bozo the clown in the next election because I am qualified to tell you all about it because I'm so good looking") Let the forums for their agendas be the same of the rest of us unqualified people. I don't have a Master's degree in political science (or a PHD in psychology as Mr. Cruise doesn't) I'll express my views through a letter to the newspaper or a forum jusxt as they should fairly also. If not they should expect reprocussion to their work. (Boycotts, lowered sales, el al)

[mosaix]

Some noble sentiments expressed here. There is one thing, however that always nags at the back of my mind and it is this.

If I fundamentaly disagree with a personal opinion of an author or artiste and it happens to be in an area that I regard as important and hold dear (such as homphobia) then, by buying their books or watching their films, they have some of my hard earned money clinking around in their pockets.

Not only that, but I am adding to their popularity and thereby boosting their ego's and, indirectly, helping to confirm in their own mind that they are right. Also, by contributing to their wealth and success, others who are more easily swayed than members of Chronicles, may have their heads turned.

This is a little off-topic but serves as an example. In Great Britain, before the 60's, racism was frowned on and disapproved of. Then a politician, Enoch Powell, made a speech that was openely racist. Overnight it was OK to be racist "because look what Enoch Powell said." Now I'm not saying there were more racists after the speech than before but he gave credibility to racism, he provided ammunition to be used in racist's arguments that, because of who he was, carried weight. And that is my point, there are a lot of people who take on board what celebrities say, because of who they are and not because of the validity of their argument.

That is why, by and large, I will not contribute to the coffers of authors and artistes with whom I hold fundamentaly opposing views.

I take it further than that. I won't buy products from companies that I know contribute to political parties that I wouldn't vote for. Why should I? I might as well make a direct contribution to the party itself.

[The Pelagic Argosy]

It works the other way to, though. I hope to have a successful writing career some day. I would hate to have people judging me on my sociopolitical views, rather than on the merits of my work. (Not to mention that it could hurt my book sales, and I'd have to continue working my crappy day job.) Considering that I'm an ultraliberal atheist, this is a real concern. (I heard that atheists in America are less trusted than gays, illegal immigrants, and Muslims.)

However, Cloud's concern about an author's beliefs coloring their work is a real one too. I would be remiss if I failed to mention that the book I'm planning prominently features several atheist characters who are openly scornful of the religious society in which they live. Despite the fact that the religious folks in my story turn out to right all along, I can just imagine all the publicity denouncing my "atheistic agenda." I just want to entertain people, not change their opinions. Of course I'll draw on my own beliefs to an extent. But only as far as it serves the story. All I would ask is that my readers approach my work with an open mind.

[I have an active imagination, don't I? I haven't finished Ch. 1, and already I'm imagining all the bad press.]

To all of you writers out there, what happens when you are interviewed? What happens with the interviewer asks you about your influences? What if you drew heavily on your religious beliefs? What if your story was based on the controversial stem-cell debate? This is all valid source material, correct? Should you decline to answer the questions for fear that you will be accused getting up on your soap box? You finally get a book published, and now you're not allowed to have opinions?

Look at poor J.K. Rowling. She's as reclusive as they come. And she's been labeled with all sorts of evil intentions...corrupting the children with her witchcraft and such. She doesn't even have to say anything.

[Joel007]

Does "homophobic" mean an irrational fear of gays, as the word means, or has it been twisted to simply mean condemnation of their practices?

[mosaix]

Originally Posted by The Pelagic Argosy

It works the other way to, though. I hope to have a successful writing career some day. I would hate to have people judging me on my sociopolitical views, rather than on the merits of my work. (Not to mention that it could hurt my book sales, and I'd have to continue working my crappy day job.) Considering that I'm an ultraliberal atheist, this is a real concern. (I heard that atheists in America are less trusted than gays, illegal immigrants, and Muslims.)

However, Cloud's concern about an author's beliefs coloring their work is a real one too. I would be remiss if I failed to mention that the book I'm planning prominently features several atheist characters who are openly scornful of the religious society in which they live. Despite the fact that the religious folks in my story turn out to right all along, I can just imagine all the publicity denouncing my "atheistic agenda." I just want to entertain people, not change their opinions. Of course I'll draw on my own beliefs to an extent. But only as far as it serves the story. All I would ask is that my readers approach my work with an open mind.

[I have an active imagination, don't I? I haven't finished Ch. 1, and already I'm imagining all the bad press.]

To all of you writers out there, what happens when you are interviewed? What happens with the interviewer asks you about your influences? What if you drew heavily on your religious beliefs? What if your story was based on the controversial stem-cell debate? This is all valid source material, correct? Should you decline to answer the questions for fear that you will be accused getting up on your soap box? You finally get a book published, and now you're not allowed to have opinions?

Look at poor J.K. Rowling. She's as reclusive as they come. And she's been labeled with all sorts of evil intentions...corrupting the children with her witchcraft and such. She doesn't even have to say anything.

Just be true to your beliefs and principles. If people don't like it - tough. For every one that would hold it against you there will be one who would buy because you are an atheist - me for one. Just let me know the title and I'll be down the bookshop pronto! Us atheists have to stick together.

[The Pelagic Argosy]

Originally Posted by mosaix

Just be true to your beliefs and principles. If people don't like it - tough. For every one that would hold it against you there will be one who would buy because you are an atheist - me for one. Just let me know the title and I'll be down the bookshop pronto! Us atheists have to stick together.

Excellent!

I think we need a secret handshake.

[mosaix]

Originally Posted by The Pelagic Argosy

Excellent!

I think we need a secret handshake.

Too late, I think our secret is out!

[steve12553]

Wow this thread is really going all over the place. (Partly my fault?). Joel, as to your question, I think the answer is yes and no depending on where in the thread you read. As to the secret handshake society, I've recently come to thing of that as the religion with no god. My understanding of the definition of atheism is a disbelief in the existence of God. At times I felt that way at other time I felt a strong belief in a supreme diety. Today I have my doubts one way or the other. I see the wrongs commited in the name of religion but I don't think I am smart enough to know enough to rule out any sort of diety. I'm gonna take a wait and see policy.

[mosaix]

Originally Posted by steve12553

I've recently come to thing of that as the religion with no god. My understanding of the definition of atheism is a disbelief in the existence of God.

My view is that no belief is the norm and that belief is aquired. Therefore the 'disbelief' or 'religion' don't enter into it.

It's a bit like being or not being a supporter of, say, cricket. We aren't born being cricket supporters but some people get interested and become fans. Those that don't aren't described in 'cricket' terms as 'non-crickets supporters' because that is the default state.

As for 'religion with no god' I prefer 'no religion' and as for 'disbelief in the existance of god' I prefer 'don't believe god exists'. There is a difference. Your definitions imply that belief is the default state and somehow that atheists opt out. I think it is the other way around.

[Redhawk]

Originally Posted by the_faery_queen

why would that be a problem? the book orlando had the main character change gender. and katherine kerr's devery series had reincarnated characters who changed gender (only once though i think. in her world souls tended to come back as the same gender, something that annoyed me. the last thing i'd want is to ALWAYS be female. i'd like to be male sometimes, or a cat so i like the idea of people coming back as anything)

Weellllll....you might be right...I may be playing the "What if game" in my own pea brain...

But, I figure the Lesbians won't (or at least a goodly portion of them) like that Dante is Male through most of the book or for the first book...(It started out as a single book..but ahhh...it's looking more and more like two would be better..maybe..lmao) Then, in the second part Dante becomes Dani/f while Laurel (f in the first) stays f in the second...called Suzanne. The first part takes place in the Middle Ages, the second in "Modern Day/now" Both parts have fairly graphic sex....after all part of the story is that they are deeply in love with each other enough so that they come together in their bond both spiritually and physically over time.

The hard core bible thumpers will be pissed that they are having sex at all and then that part of the time they are two women, some Lesbians (assuming they are on the "high moral road") that part of the time one of the characters is not only male, but really good at what he does with his beloved...(tongue in cheek...straight males would probably love it best...since the first part shows men as capable of being very proficient...and then too because many are...hmmm fairly interested in what goes on between two women in love)

Who knows...if I make fun of it in my head first...maybe I'll jinx-proof it...
I can't count my covers till they're drawn.

[the_faery_queen]

but are these people likely to read your book? i was worried about the same thing, mostly ailenaiting homophobic fantasy readers (of whcih i am sure there are some) or just those who don't like male on male lovin, as my stuff always has that (and i have had some emails from people who didn't like it, including a gay man who said only gay men should write gay sex) but my theory was, dont' like it, don't read it! you can't please everyone. and even if you write something that isn't altnerative in any way, not everyone will like it. i don't like tolkein or rowling. you just have to write what is right for you and see what happens cos for every person who hates that sort of thing, you will probably find one who likes it

[Redhawk]

Originally Posted by the_faery_queen

but are these people likely to read your book? i was worried about the same thing, mostly ailenaiting homophobic fantasy readers (of whcih i am sure there are some) or just those who don't like male on male lovin, as my stuff always has that (and i have had some emails from people who didn't like it, including a gay man who said only gay men should write gay sex) but my theory was, dont' like it, don't read it! you can't please everyone. and even if you write something that isn't altnerative in any way, not everyone will like it. i don't like tolkein or rowling. you just have to write what is right for you and see what happens cos for every person who hates that sort of thing, you will probably find one who likes it

You have a perfect point...Originally I was going to market it towards the Lesbian story publishers....but now I'll just finish it and put it out there and hope for the best...stranger things have happened! (and won't I "owe" the many wonderful editorial helpers HERE a big fat credit, if the sucker does get picked up...and even if it doesn't in my opinion!) Folks here are so very kind and giving with their knowledge!

[the_faery_queen]

good luck with it. im sure it will get accepted. mine was (with small print, granted) and after that i think anything can!