A question about Tolkien's World

[Elendor]

Did J.R.R. Tolkien consider Middle-earth a medieval world?

I am asking this question,because we know all that Tolkien was a medieval scholar,and his novel the Lord of the Rings depicts things and materials which has a connection to the things in the medieval period.And also in the Lotr movie,the armor,the weapons,and siege engines shown,are all considered medieval weaponry.

So did Tolkien really consider Middle-earth a medieval world? Or what if not,
but still used his knowledge of the medieval period to write his novels.

[I, Brian]

Sorry you've had no replies so far, Elendor - I was sort of hoping that someone with a little more experience of the background reading would answer.

I'm not sure whether Tolkien considered Middle Earth a mediaeval world - but there are certainly a lot of elements drawn from his own studies of the literature and language of the early Middle Ages.

As with most fantasy writers, though, a lot of mediaeval realism is missed.

Perhaps it could be said that Tolkien didn't set out to create a mediaeval world, as much as create an epic legend - if that makes sense.

Oh - and welcome to the chronicles network.

[dwndrgn]

From the little I know, he set out to create a new mythology for Great Britain. I'm quite sure that he used what he knew of history and embellished upon that.

Unfortunately I'm not an expert at either the midieval time period or Tolkien's world so I can't help other than the above. Perhaps another member who knows more than I can help.

[Lacedaemonian]

He considered the stories of Middle-earth to be Britains lost history of the dark ages. I think that the weapons/armour described are more likely to be from BC as opposed to the middle-ages.

[None_Elf_Ear]

You can say this as well, but I cannot be sure that this was his intention.

People like the Rohirrims were of course having their roots and inspiration in such as the Old Britain inhabitants, but he sure added many new things to this.

[guthrie]

As far as I know, the rohirrim were supposed to be Anglo Saxon. That was after all a period tolkein was studying, in fact he was an authority on Anglo Saxon texts and history. From my own knowledge of combat, weapons and armour, what is used is roughly what was around in that period, ie 8th or 9th century AD, although there are undoubtedly a few things thrown in that were more common later on. I understand the medieval period to be around 1100 to 1500AD, and thus although there is perhaps a hint of a more courtly, chivalric sense about some of LOTR, the basis is in the dark ages, though shorn of the more unappealing aspects of life at that time.

[Neil040]

Originally Posted by guthrie

As far as I know, the rohirrim were supposed to be Anglo Saxon. That was after all a period tolkein was studying, in fact he was an authority on Anglo Saxon texts and history. From my own knowledge of combat, weapons and armour, what is used is roughly what was around in that period, ie 8th or 9th century AD, although there are undoubtedly a few things thrown in that were more common later on. I understand the medieval period to be around 1100 to 1500AD, and thus although there is perhaps a hint of a more courtly, chivalric sense about some of LOTR, the basis is in the dark ages, though shorn of the more unappealing aspects of life at that time.

Its true he was an expert on Anglo Saxon.. while at school I think he was one of only six people alive capable of conversing in that language.. and his interests were more towards ancient nordic and northern european history than medieval I think.. altho I am sure he studied it all! But the weapon's technology does seem largely based on early to medieval periods..

As dwndrgn says.. I think he set out to create a whole new mythology.. not sure he had any actual time frame for the setting of middle earth.. just meant it to be a looooooong looooong time ago... way before any known history.. in fact of course in a time so far back that elves and dwarves and goblins still shared the earth with man.. so far back that no continuity existed with modern humanity.. a time before a REAL dark age that allowed only dim memories of his other races to survive.. thats my take on it anyway..

One thing I understand well is how he came to develop the hobbits and hobbiton, since i know the countryside that he lived in as a child.. in a village now part of south birmingham proper.. some remnants of that remain alongside the river.. which is also where I grew up.. a few hundreds yards from that surviving wildness within a city. That is pure hobbit land to me.. later years I moved west from birminham into the shropshire border lands which I know he visited.. there are the hidden valleys and the hills and mountains that soar out vividly from his writings... not impossible to imagine that the hobbits still manage to survive to this day in some forgotten corner of that verdant cosy landscape!

[guthrie]

WEll, the funny thing about weapons technology is that is isnt, merely by the name, a lot different over the period since Rome fell and the end of the medieval era. Admittedly the lack of seaxes carried by the Rohirrim counts against them being Saxons, as does them having stirrups, but the use of spears and small bows as well as swords being very important is all quite period enough. As is the lack of plate armour, if I remember correctly. We probably can never tell exactly what Tolkein was aiming for, since he didnt put so much detail in, but essentially, use of a shield and single hand sword was common all through the dark ages up to about the mid 14th century, when the shields finally began getting really small and the rise of plate armour.

I'd generally agree with the new mythology, I've heard that stuff before. But have you noticed the moon is founded by a man, rather than being feminine as in most mythology that I am aware of?

I'd like to see Shropshire, its outwith anywhere I have been in England before, we have some rolling countryside up here in Scotland, but its less hospitable.

[Neil040]

Its an interesting thing to consider Guthrie.. not even close to an expert myself but fascinating to consider.. I suppose at the end of the day in close combat there are only so many things you can use to bash the crap out of your enemy! Hence swords and axes and such are pretty constant through known history... its the defensive elements such as armour.. and the 'stand off' weapons such as bows and spears that change more.. apart from the obvious quality of hand weapons.. in forging of harder steels etc..

I think most of development of tech in this line has been to stand off your enemy as much as pos.. hence our 'wonderful' modern age of missiles and high altitude bombing... I recall an interview with a famous decorated vietcong hero on tv docu, describing how they fought against the massive overwhelming firepower of the usa.. he described that all their tactics basically boiled down to trying to close on their enemy.. they could not fight against bombs.. but get close enough to use a knive and they were on equal.. or in fact considering the century of almost continous warfare that they had endured.. superior ground..

Do visit Shropshire sometime.. its a great place.. I would recommend a trip via Shrewbury itself down to the Long Mynd mountain, near Church Stretton.. over to Bishops Castle (you like real ale? thats your place!) to Clun and the hills above both places... the barrows and tumps you will recognise from LOTR... and then to Ludlow and the castle there... sigh... the most interesting geological and historical county in england I think.. do you know there are stone norman castles there along the welsh marches that PRE-Date 1066? The normans were there for several decades in fact.. as mercenaries for the marcher lords...

[Teresa Edgerton]

In fact, Middle Earth seems to have several eras going at once. Have you ever noticed how, in LOTR, the further the characters get from the Shire, the further back in time they seem to go? It's not just weapons technology (which probably didn't interest him particularly), but language (especially) and occasional details of costume and of everyday life.

Hobbits have waistcoats and pocket handerchiefs and clocks. They invite people over for tea in the afternoon. They think and talk and act like the people Tolkien lived among as a young boy.

"The Prancing Pony" at Bree has a strong flavor of an 18th century inn (minus the frequent arrival of stage coaches and mail coaches).

By the time you get to Rivendell, you could be anytime in the Renaissance or the Middle Ages. By the time you get to Rohan, it's the very early Middle Ages, or even the Dark Ages. In Gondor, things begin to look rather Byzantine.

Of course none of this is absolutely consistent. Tolkien obviously wasn't very interested in THAT sort of inner consistency, or he wouldn't have mixed his Edwardian Hobbits with his quasi-Saxon Rohirrim to begin with. He grounds the story in other ways. He was, for instance (as if becomes clear from notes in the HOME books, and from his letters), absolutely obsessed with getting things like the changing of the seasons and the phases of the moon absolutely right. And probably no one ever has surpassed, or ever will surpass, Tolkien in his intimate descriptions of the countryside that his characters pass through.

[Neil040]

Originally Posted by Kelpie

In fact, Middle Earth seems to have several eras going at once. Have you ever noticed how, in LOTR, the further the characters get from the Shire, the further back in time they seem to go?

And probably no one ever has surpassed, or ever will surpass, Tolkien in his intimate descriptions of the countryside that his characters pass through.

Thats a very very good point Kelpie! You are absolutely right in that observation now that I think about it... nice work! Never heard that put quite like that and I like that...

I agree about his descriptive powers of the countryside.. he really did have a beautiful perception of the natural world.. unsurpassed as you say

[I, Brian]

That's a great observation, Kelpie.

The Hobbits tech had often seemed a little out of place to myself, but seem to add to the oddity of them all - little comfort lovers in a world outside of harsh realities. One of the magical things about the them, IMO.

[Teresa Edgerton]

Ah well, its already been established elsewhere that I have very little life outside the fantasy genre -- so I ought to be able to come up with the occasional interesting insight.

I might add that the Hobbits, being closest to us in time, serve to sort of ease us into the rest of the story. (Not that all these later after the books were first published many of us need easing into a fantasy world. But it would have helped some readers when the books came out.)

The main thing is that the books have their own absolutely unique logic. I suppose that comes of Tolkien working on them, or on the background stories, for most of his adult life. He was able to create an alternate reality so compelling that we're able to buy into it utterly (well, some of us -- me, for instance) and accept any little oddities as part of the charm (or the magic as Brian puts it).

Probably NOT the sort of thing that any of the writers among us would be advised to try at home -- not unless we're willing to devote a similar slice of our own lives to the process.

I like that about little comfort lovers in a world of harsh realities. Very nicely put.

[Neil040]

Originally Posted by Kelpie

I might add that the Hobbits, being closest to us in time, serve to sort of ease us into the rest of the story. (Not that all these later after the books were first published many of us need easing into a fantasy world. But it would have helped some readers when the books came out.)

The main thing is that the books have their own absolutely unique logic. I suppose that comes of Tolkien working on them, or on the background stories, for most of his adult life. He was able to create an alternate reality so compelling that we're able to buy into it utterly

I like that about little comfort lovers in a world of harsh realities. Very nicely put.

Yes a clever literary device which worked well of course... I think Tolkien was unique, in as you say, he pretty well devoted a long life to building an utterly compelling mythology... I remember when he died, reading an obituary, the most memorable bit of which spoke of how, uniquely, he had invented an entire mythology single handed that was more extensive and detailed than many nation's own entire mythologies... that always stuck with me... what an achievement!

I liked Brian's little comfort lovers comment too... nice..

[guthrie]

Originally Posted by Neil040

Its an interesting thing to consider Guthrie.. not even close to an expert myself but fascinating to consider.. I suppose at the end of the day in close combat there are only so many things you can use to bash the crap out of your enemy! Hence swords and axes and such are pretty constant through known history... its the defensive elements such as armour.. and the 'stand off' weapons such as bows and spears that change more.. apart from the obvious quality of hand weapons.. in forging of harder steels etc..

Yes, I think so. The exact shape changed over the centuries, shields were often squarish in Pictish Scotland, and round for Viklings, kite shaped for Normans, since that was a good shape for cavalry use. But spears didnt really change shape or function much at all. As for the armour, I dont recall any plate in LOTR, which definitely uts it back towards early medieval. I've been doing medieval reenacting for 3 years now, and am moderately good with a sword and spear and stuff, but theres still plenty to learn.

Originally Posted by Neil040

Do visit Shropshire sometime.. its a great place.. I would recommend a trip via Shrewbury itself down to the Long Mynd mountain, near Church Stretton.. over to Bishops Castle (you like real ale? thats your place!) to Clun and the hills above both places... the barrows and tumps you will recognise from LOTR... and then to Ludlow and the castle there... sigh... the most interesting geological and historical county in england I think.. do you know there are stone norman castles there along the welsh marches that PRE-Date 1066? The normans were there for several decades in fact.. as mercenaries for the marcher lords...

Real ale? CAstles? Norman castles taht predate the conquest? Now your talking my language. HHmm, whens the best time of year to visit? I dont like it too hot, being Scottish.

I too rather like Kelpies suggestion about the changing eras of the story as you travel.