Snape

[Leisha]

Yeah, but Wormtail isn't "bad" by any standard definition; he just became frightened and made the wrong choices. So, by nature he's a coward, not an evil man.

[Joel007]

Did dumbledore really trust wormtail? I thought they knew each other only as master and pupil, and he was more of a family friend to the potters than any trustee of dumbledore's.

[Leisha]

Ditto...

[Crazihors]

Yeah, but afterwards, Wormtail was a member of the Order, so Dumbledore would have known him like he knew James and Lily....they would have only been student-teacher related to Dumbledore before then as well

[Joel007]

Wasn't it Sirius who recommended Peter as the one to guard the Potters?
I'm not certain that Dumbledore would have spent enough time with wormtail to actually know his character in any confident matter. Life in the Order is always a bit hectic with missions.

[Snarf]

I have the same feeling about him. He's done so many bad things but I still trust him. I still see him as a good guy. *Shrug* But like someone said he was in Slytherin, so....who knows.

[Toraspanda]

Originally Posted by Crazihors

i see you all arguing whether Snape is good or evil....personally i don't think he's either - a more gutsy version of Wormtail, if you will.

He is bad, he was a slytherin! i think he's one of those people only interested in self-preservation, he changed very quickly from being a death eater to Dumbledore's side, and i think he only seemed reluctant to being a spy again - either that or he was scared of being fried. i think he has his own agenda...like Jack Sparrow only less piratey...he makes it up as he goes along, and overcomes any spanners in the works, so to speak

Crazihors, we are on the same page. Below is what I wrote in my LJ after reading The Deathly Hallows. Anyone who hasn't read the book yet, be warned :

***SPOILERS***

About Snape. I have never believed that he was on the side of the angels. However, I wouldn't say he was either "good or evil"; he is more complex than that. In fact, I believe this character is almost too "heavy" for the book, as he has a tragic potential that transcends the genre of fantasy.

I use the word "tragic" deliberately, in a technical, Aristotelian sense: the tragic protagonist as a man who is basically good, noble and admirable, but who has one Fatal Flaw that will bring about his downfall: Hamlet's indecision, Othello's pathological jealousy, Macbeth's vaulting ambition, and so on.

I must admit to great disappointment with Rowling's "resolution" of the Snape enigma in Book 7. It was rushed and slipshod, especially after the painstaking building of the character throughout the first six books. We are given more insight into what has made Snape what he is than any other character, except Harry himself. We understand why he has built around himself a cold, protective wall, against the many rejections and humiliations he has suffered. He has even created a persona - admirably illustrated by Alan Rickman in the films, of the sinister, powerful, mysterious sorcerer (vide the first Potions lesson that Harry attends). His pride is enormous - another protection - he is the Half-Blood Prince, the archetypal Outsider, who compensates for being shut out from ordinary human warmth and affection by seeing himself as "special", a Man of Destiny. I have often been reminded of other literary or historical instances when reading about Snape: quotations pop into my mind such as:

"Oderint, dun metuant", or
"since I cannot prove a lover,
To entertain these fair well-spoken days, -
I am determined to prove a villain,
And hate the idle pleasures of these days."

Why, then, does Snape ultimately choose the "good" side? I believe it is simply that he is not on anyone's side but his own. Much as he hates Harry, for being James' son, and he must hate Voldemort for murdering Lily, it is in his interest to work against Voldemort and the Death Eaters. Snape is intelligent. He knows that Voldemort must ultimately fail, because he stands for violence and tyranny, which inevitably carry the seeds of their own destruction.

It would also be in keeping with the psychology of the solitary misfit to be stimulated, even exhilarated , by the extreme danger of the life of a double-triple agent, of the years of manipulation and pretence. It would give him a sense of power and superiority. He alone would know the secret of who and what he was, of what side he truly supported. He might feel that the destiny of the wizarding world was essentially in his hands, his the power to tip the balance and decide the outcome.

There it is then. A man neither wholly evil not wholly good; a deeply-flawed, almost tragic being , highly intelligent, extremely courageous, possessing extraordinary skill and control - yet at the same time petty, vindictive, resentful, unable to overcome the injustices and rejections he had suffered. No wonder Rowling chose the rather facile device of revealing Snape's motivations through his memories. She could not have done his character justice without unbalancing the book altogether. He is far too dense a character for this particular series, and it is a pity that the plot required his allegiance to remain a mystery until the end. The failure of Snape's characterisation unfortunately detracts from the splendidly crafted Finale, the ultimate confrontation between Harry and Voldemort.

[UnderTheOath]

Yeah I agree with Toraspanda. He is definately a very complex character, neither good nor evil. I like the way he loved Harry for Lilly's sake, but hated him for James's sake. I also liked how his patronus was a doe, like Lilly's.

Definately a favourite character of mine along with Sirius and Ginny.

[Lilly]

personally, Snape was my favourite charecter throughout the whole Harry Potter series!

[pyan]

Reads Toraspanda's posts, applauds.

[Joel007]

I liked Snape all the way until he was turned into a weakling at the end.

[alexx]

How was he a weakling at the end? (assuming you're talking about the end of Deathly Hallows) He proved to be perhaps acting for selfish reasons, because he wanted to make himself feel better about Lily dying, or somehow still remain close to her...but he still did the right thing. Although I suppose one might argue the right thing for the wrong reasons is...flawed, I suppose. Still, Snape is very flawed and I think he's a better, more interesting character because of his motivations.

[paranoid marvin]

**** SPOILERS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*************************
(for anyone who STILL hasn't finished the book!)















Snape isn't an evil character , he never has been. Just because he didn't like Harry , because he can see him behaving like his father did , ambivalent to authority ,doesn't make him bad.Snape never does anything to harm Potter , or put him ain any meaningful danger - he can do that quite capably himself - quite the contrary he tries to help Harry

He certainly is authoritarian in nature , and the way he attempts to keep the natural order of things by protecting the establishment from those who would destabilise the status quo (ie Voldemort and his Deatheaters) , is in keeping with the way that he attempts to keep order at Hogwarts with his disciplining of Harry and his friends

I do agree that Snape is a tragic character - losing the girl of his dreams is largely down to his own actions , and driving her into the arms of the boy who bullies him equally so. Never likely to become headmaster at Hogwarts , or indeed hold any meaningful post due to his insular nature (his only 'friend' outside of Slytherin perhaps being the caretaker) his only concern is to revenge himself on the man who ended the life of his one and only love - a revenge that he knows is almost certain to end in failure and death for himself.

I have mixed feelings about his end - an heroic death , with everyone able to see how brave and noble and true he really is , would not be in keeping with either Rowlings' potrayl of Severus , or indeed with the character of the man himself. I had few doubts that , regardless of the queston of his true loyalty , that he would survive the final volume - death is , quite often , the fate of many tragic characters in novels

His ending is as tragic as the majority of his life has been. With no heroic struggle , no grand exit , no noble last words. Left alone with perhaps the one person in the world still alive with whom he has any meaningful kind of relationship , his passing was far more poignant for me than Dumbledore's ever was

[Gilmoy]

I knew before reading HBP that Snape killed Dumbledore at the end -- couldn't avoid the spoiler on the Internet, seems people thought it fair game after DH was published So it didn't shock me that much.

After some reflection (particularly Snape screaming "DON'T CALL ME A COWARD!" -- note: anything Rowling writes in all-caps is probably very significant), it seemed clear to me (before reading DH) that Snape was colluding with Dumbledore, and this was an elaborate and well-orchestrated sac(rifice) by Dumbledore. I thought this quite apt, considering Rowling's affectionate usage of chess as a Hogwarts activity.

Both the readers, and the people within the book, "know" that Snape is working for both sides: as a Death Eater for Voldemort, and as a member of Hogwarts and the Order. Consequently, neither side fully trusts him. Rowling milked that theme on both sides -- Hogwarts teachers & students, Order members, and the Unbreakable Vow sequence at the start of HBP.

Now, Dumbledore saw the grand events of the Second Wizard War as a conflict between Voldemort and the "Good Guys" -- and as Dumbledore was the nominal head of the good guys, this meant Voldemort vs. Dumbledore. (In DH, we saw that this is not the first time Dumbledore has accepted that responsibility -- he did a similar thing in challenging Grindelwald.)

I credit Dumbledore with enough foresight to see that various schemes may require that he sacrifice a member of his own army. Who would Dumbledore choose for that? Of course, himself! It fits his character. It has the further benefit that it's precisely the kind of move that Voldemort would not understand, since he himself can't begin to think that way.

I misjudged some aspects of Snape's motives (obviously, because they were only fully explained using new data from DH, which I coudn't anticipate). Here's how I saw it after HBP:

a) Snape was well-known for his very strong Occlumens -- evidently stronger than even Voldemort's Legilimens. This worked both ways -- Voldemort himself "knew" that Snape's Occlumens was stronger than Dumbledore's Legilimens! Without both of those aspects, the Snape-as-double-agent theme can't work.
b) Snape has a credibility problem on both sides. The story of a spy's life!
c) Dumbledore needs Snape to rise in trust in Voldedemort's eyes. For what purpose? I assumed it was so that Snape could gain a key position, which would give him the opportunity to swing events on the scene at the climax. (I didn't anticipate the Elder Wand transfer mechanism subplot.)
d) Snape must also trump Bellatrix Lestrange's distrust.
e) In HBP itself, we follow Draco Malfoy's dilemma: he must kill Dumbledore or his family will be tortured/punished. He's terrified and screwed, and there's no way out for him. Dumbledore "saw" that, too. Dumbledore would like to save Draco! (And in the very end, we see that Draco was worth saving, after all. It wasn't too late for him.)

What single stroke can Dumbledore arrange, which achieves all that? He arranges for Snape to kill him. Dumbledore, chuckling, calls it a pawn sac!

f) They must have discussed it further, and realized that it solves the Draco and Bellatrix problems, too: Snape can offer up an Unbreakable Vow, and further flummox Bellatrix by asking her to be Vow-Keeper -- which flabbergasts her into a blind spot! After that, she doesn't know what to think of him -- but she surely can't believe he's a spy.

g) Dumbledore trusted Snape completely. What was there between them that could make him think so? Here, my guess was a bit off: I thought it was tied to (a). I missed the clues that Snape loved Lily Evans (admittedly, these were quite scarce before DH). Hence, I thought that the one act Snape could do to win Dumbledore's trust was to turn off his Occlumens, and deliberately open his mind to Dumbledore's probing. Which, in fact, he does appear to do, but Rowling downplays it in DH. DH puts much more emphasis on the fact that Snape's overarching motive, and the basis of his remorse, was his love for Lily. You have to read between the lines, but it seems clear that in one of Snape's last memories, where he and Dumbledore have just completed a session of probing Snape's mind, that they were working together at it, rather than Snape resisting.

After DH, I liked Rowling's shift of the emphasis to Snape's love for Lily, rather than a purely rational computation of concrete advantages. It fits with Dumbledore's teachings to Harry that love was the strongest magic, and greatly enhances Snape as a tragic figure. Snape chose a very lonely path, with no real thought of gaining anything he wanted from it, and a nigh-certain unhappy end, and never wavered from it. What motivates a person to go to such lengths? Nobody on Voldemort's side did that for him! Snape did it out of love and remorse -- and Voldemort proved greatly vulnerable to that avenue of attack. He never did understand how Snape undermined him!

It could be argued that Bellatrix showed Voldemort a similar kind of loyalty. But of the two, Snape had a bigger effect on the course of events. Bellatrix ultimately was just a large-caliber cannon, roughly equal to 2 or 3 other Death Eaters -- good in a melee, but not particularly useful for any other operations. In contrast, Snape shaped the battlefield -- simultaneously an early-warning radar system and Enigma code-cracker for the Order, and a control rod amidst those Death Eaters' schemes in which he directly participated.

I first saw the Order of the Phoenix movie on endless HBO replays in a hotel, and even without knowing the rest of the series, I thought Snape's role was much more interesting than any of the other teachers. I look forward to seeing him really stretch his wings in the next 3 movies.

[Cayal]

Wow, some people are deep in their analysis.