Doctor Who paradox *spoilers*

[Princess Ivy]

i'm stuck here, if there is a parallel world with a torchwood of it's own, and we know our doctor can't travel between worlds, is there a parallel doctor? because we know torchwood was set up by q.vicky after her encounter with the doctor. possibly parallel timelords who might still survive? could this be an out to bring back rose? or possibly one of the older doctors? or a totaly new one?
i'm looking for thoughts and clarifications here please

[Dave]

We think alike! I also wondered what happened to the parallel world Doctor. I posted as much in the episode thread.

The thing is that 'Doctor Who' was never very good on continuity anyway. The more you look the more discrepancies you find. Any long running scifi TV series suffers the same. 'Stargate' has problems, 'Star Trek' has many varied (and they tried so hard), 'Doctor Who' never bothered to try (the history of the Daleks is a complete mess).

What irks me is that they had an opportunity to start afresh with the new series, yet after only two seasons have created this one all on their own.

[Princess Ivy]

could be good fun though, to have two series, running in parallel to each other, occasionaly crossing over, as if there are more timelords in parallel dimensions, maybe they still pop accross easily
could also go into the records as never having been done before. one program with two separate episodes each week, with two seperate casts....




my brain is spinning. i think i'm gonna have a lie down

[Adasunshine]

I don't think there would be a parallel Doctor, he's a Time Lord, not a human, he doesn't dwell on earth.

The reason there are 2 Torchwood's is because the same Doctor has managed to visit both Earths.

Or am I missing something?

xx

[Dave]

The Torchwood Institute on our Earth was created by Queen Victoria after she encountered the Doctor. If there was no parallel Earth Doctor to meet the parallel Earth Queen Victoria, there would be no parallel Earth Torchwood Institute created.

Hence, there must have been a parallel Earth Doctor.

The only explanation I could come up with was that he died somewhere between those two parallel Earth episodes this Season. Maybe in a parallel Earth he is just not as popular on TV. Something to do with the ear-pods?

[Adasunshine]

LOL!

Oh I don't know, he's a Time Lord, anything's possible! Also, as it's a parallel Earth, something else would have happened, he wouldn't have met Victoria. Maybe another alien species or just the werewolf caused her to start it up.

Rose wasn't on Parallel Earth, her dad didn't die, it's all swings and roundabouts, maybe Rose set up their Torchwood, we don't really know enough about it, we just know she works there.

Brains will ache if they think too much about this y'know!

xx

[zorcarepublic]

Easy.

The split between our world and the Cybermen's world (or Petes World) happened after Queen Victoria created the Torchwood Institute. If you watch the Doctors explanation of the parrallel universes, he says that every decision we make creates new dimensions. Presumably, possibly in the Cybermen's world, the Zeppelins became far more popular than aircraft. But the POD (point of divergence) happened before then.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by zorcarepublic

Easy.

But the Doctor never visited Queen Victoria until only last year! That would be long after the POD.

And you haven't answered the question: "Where is the parallel Earth Doctor?"

In fact, the problem here is that the writers have mixed up two incompatible ideas about time travel.

Historically, Doctor Who, and most old SF stories, always view time as linear. It is a fixed line that you can go forward or backwards along. You cannot actually change something in the past, because it was always destined to happen that way.

Or, if you do change something, you change everything that comes afterwards irreversably.

Modern physics with wormholes, superstring theory, up to 13 dimensions, and parallel worlds has been embraced by some modern writers and some TV shows - Sliders, for example. Passing between dimensions, relativistic time travel to the future might be possible, but travelling backwards in time would not be.

As I always say, if they invent Time Travel in the future, where were all the Time Tourists in the past?

[zorcarepublic]

No, the episode with Queen Victoria took place BEFORE the episode with the Cybermen.

New Earth was first, followed by Queen Victoria, then another few episodes during which Mickey signs up on the TARDIS, then we get to the Cybermen episode, which is taking place at the same time as this Earth. Therefore, the POD took place AFTER the formation of the Torchwood Institute and BEFORE the present day.

Ergo, there wouldn't need to be a parrallel Earth Doctor.

Okay?

[Dave]

You haven't understood what I posted, but I think I see where you are coming from now.

If the Doctors adventures as we see them are in sequence (and they always have been) then he did not go back in time with Rose and meet Queen Victoria until last year. The order of the episodes is not in question.

If the Doctor had died some years ago (for example, along with the other Time Lords in the Time War) he would not have been able to go back and meet Queen Victoria and so Torchwood would not have existed.

The divergence which created the parallel Earth reality in which the Cybermen were created happened anytime before the birth of Rose and before Pete's death in our reality, but quite some time ago. Since there is a Doctor in our reality there should also be a Doctor in the parallel reality unless something happened to him there.

My point is that in a parallel Earth, the parallel Earth Doctor would also need to go back in his own reality (without Rose obviously) to meet his Queen Victoria in order to create Torchwood in that reality. If so, where is he?

Now, I think you are saying that is not necessary. It would only take a Doctor from one single reality to go back because before a divergence history is the same in both or all realities.

I still don't agree. As I said before, they have mixed up two incompatible ideas about the nature of time here, and that is the problem. But I will agree to disagree with you on this.

[Princess Ivy]

just a point, the same doctor (ie david tennant incarnation who visited qv and caused torchwood) can't travel to parallel worlds becasue he only came into being after the time war and that was after the doorways to parallel worlds werfe closed by the tome lords
just re-watched the second last eps of the 2005 series (i love it, only time i watch big brother!). the answer to one of the questions in the weakest link game was TORCHWOOD. so, another paradox. the past was already changed to allow that qv has met the doctor, therefore the doctor (DT) must have already been there, therefore we cannot change the past as everything is fixed? then obviously there is no point to life as it is just a series of preplanned events that have to repeat each other to infinity, including my writing this post and deciding to lie down and not bother any more....

don't like the sound of that one!

i've always been more of a fan of freewill and being able to change things. the lateral time theory that is seen so often in comics and graphic novels (just going through x-men again)

[Princess Ivy]

Originally Posted by zorcarepublic

No, the episode with Queen Victoria took place BEFORE the episode with the Cybermen.

New Earth was first, followed by Queen Victoria, then another few episodes during which Mickey signs up on the TARDIS, then we get to the Cybermen episode, which is taking place at the same time as this Earth. Therefore, the POD took place AFTER the formation of the Torchwood Institute and BEFORE the present day.

Ergo, there wouldn't need to be a parrallel Earth Doctor.

Okay?

we know which doctor met vicky, david tennant incarnation. we know that he is the last of the timelords, we also know that the timelords stopped travel between parallel earths with the time war, ergo he could not have gone and met their vicky.
(i've just read that back and now my eyes are crossing.)

i've just had another thought (i'm working on very little sleep here, bare with me) the doctor from our universe only met vicky because he was trying to take rose to that music festival. if there is no rose in the parallel universe, he would have had to have another reason for meeting vicky, therefore it must have been a parallel doctor, or our doctor wouldn't have been so surprised at meeting the warewolf etc... and would have simply nicked her diamond, killed the ww and been home in time for tea.

smoke me a kipper i'm done (reason i'm short on sleep is that last night i did a doctor who marathon with the kids in the early evening and then sat up late watching red dwarf. i'm sad!!!!!)

[zorcarepublic]

It still seems you are not getting this.

Lets do the timeline with the three major events:

1) The Doctor and Rose go back in time to meet Queen Victoria. They are chased by a werewolf and are able, with the telescope, to defeat it. Then Queen Victoria thanks them and tells them to leave Great Britain forever. Then, when leaving the Torchwood Estate, she announces her plan to create the Torchwood Institute.

2) At some point in the next hundred and thirty years (possibly quite early on) the two timelines diverge, creating the alternate dimension. It doesn't matter that no travel between the two is possible, it simply happens. The Doctor is in this timeline (who knows? It might have been him that, in an adventure we see off-screen, created the alternate dimension)

3) The events as depicted in The Rise of the Cybermen et al happen.

Thus a simple explanation. Okay?

We'll just have to agree to disagree. But I know Im right...

[Princess Ivy]

it's ok babe, cause i know i am

[Dave]

I was really going to finish this and just let it lie. I think it was Kathryn Janeway in Star Trek: Voyager who said "Temporal Mechanics always give me a headache," but I really had to respond to this bit:

Originally Posted by Princess Ivy

...The doctor from our universe only met vicky because he was trying to take rose to that music festival. if there is no rose in the parallel universe, he would have had to have another reason for meeting vicky...

You are a Genius! There should be no Torchwood in the Cybermen's Reality. And a quick head count makes that two to one