Doctor Who paradox *spoilers*

[ekys]

I think you're missing the most fundamental point when thinking of time as linear.

Time is linear from the observers point of view.

The diverging universes theory maps every choice as a fork in a road - so if you could stand back and look at all the parallel universes, you'd see time as almost infinitely branched.

So if Rose and the Doctor went back and caused Tourchwood's establishment - that event becomes part of the linear string of all the future branches, from the point of view of whoever is looking back.

so if you think of it like this

.this is just for filling space........ !---------------Rose/Doctor (Parallel 1)
Queen Vic ---------(divergence) !
.this is just for filling space........ !---------------No Rose/Cybermen (Parallel 2)



So if you stand in either Parallel one or two and trace back to Quen Vic - it looks linear.

The thing is - no matter how many other branches happen - when you trace backwards from the observers point of view, time will always be observed as linear. At any given present time - if you look sideways in the time map, you will see your parallel universes along side you. It is only when you go forward that time is not observed as linear, but highly branched.

This begs the question, how the Doctor can expect things to be a certain way when he travels forward in time, seeing as parallel universes can only really be viewed from the present moving backwards and not forwards (as they are still diverging).

One possible explanation, often cited in Sci Fi, is that time, while offering innumerable chances to branch out, will always have the same "basic shape" in terms of history - so if you went back and killed Hitler as a kid, someone else would take his place and a WW2 of some form would still take place.

It is all very brain melting to sit and think about. I found pratchett's nightwatch, to be a very good piece of writing in terms of getting the whole concept across in laymans terms (and it is a good book).

[chazri]

Originally Posted by Princess Ivy

i'm stuck here, if there is a parallel world with a torchwood of it's own, and we know our doctor can't travel between worlds, is there a parallel doctor?

i think if a parrallel doctor does exist maybe Rose is with him right now?

[Captain B]

The other question is there more than one parallel universe.
Where does the "inferno" parallel universe live?; There you had a parallel but evil "UNIT" with the brigadier & Liz Shaw, But no parallel Doctor
Where is that parallel universe with the "British Space Programme" (Ambassadors of death)?
Are there infinite parallel universes but only one Doctor ?? Or infinite Doctors ?

Or only our universe & the rest are just fiction?

[ThePeterPixie]

What a lovely thread! I am so glad ekys was able to show physically the divergent time lines as I was wondering how to draw it on here.

My understanding about the Timelords is that they were the keepers of a specific (in their words) "true" time line as to how things were to happen. This is the one time line that has the creation of the Timelords from mere Gallifreyans known as the Pythias.

There was also an inhibitor in effect that would not allow a time lord to visit Gallifrey beyond a "current modern time." But, you have to have a road map if you want to drive the universe in a particular way. Thus the Green and Black books of Gallifrey were written to show how it all ends. If this is true, then at least SOME of the Timelords must have known they Time War would be the end of their exsistence as Temporal Police. (Although they had a strict non-interference policy except when it suited them.)

I won't bore you with the "historical" details.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by ThePeterPixie

I won't bore you with the "historical" details.

You wouldn't bore me if you wanted to expand upon it, but where does that idea, and the Green and Black books originate? I haven't read very many Doctor Who books, and I haven't listened to many of the audio plays. I've not seen any of the Big Finish productions. Is it from one of those? Or is it your own speculation?

[ThePeterPixie]

The Green and Black Books are mentioned in Timewyrm: Revelation pages 65-66 and 197 in the Virgin New Adventures.

I suggest listening to the Audio Adventures, especially the 8th Doctor's stories. ALL of them have been wonderful. But McGann is allowed to really give live to his Doctor and I'm so into the stories.

I really am a Doctor Who universe Geek. LOL.

[TiwazTyrsfist]

I think the more relevent question is this.

Assuming that in the infinate paralel universes that timelords exist in many of them, and that in many of those realities the existant timelords are very similar to if not the same as those in the main Doctor Who universe, isn't it possible that in other realities, different timelords were the survivors of the Time War?

Like, for example, The Master. Say, a paralel world where he survived upto and through the time war. Then, in the midst of a plan to conquer the universe, a paralel group of daleks show up in a paralel Void Ship... Now we have a version of the Master with, oh say, 7 incarnations left at least, and a convienient way to cross the unplace between realites, so he can show up to mess with the Doctor. Just because...

[Dave]

Originally Posted by TiwazTyrsfist

Isn't it possible that in other realities, different timelords were the survivors of the Time War?

If the Doctor Who macrocosm now completely embraces the theory of parallel universes then there should certainly be some like that. There should be some where none survived, and some where all survived, and some where the Time War never took place at all.

The real question is what drives them (and the Cybermen, and the Daleks, Bill Brewer, Jan Stewer, Peter Gurney, Peter Davy, Dan'l Whiddon, Harry Hawke, Old Uncle Tom Cobley and all) to come to our universe when they could go to any other?

Edit: And then I would expect the same thing to happen as in Sliders with the Kromaggs. The Cybermen/Daleks who rule on one reality would then begin hopping between realities to attempt tto conquer them all.

[Crazihors]

going back to the queen vic thing......

if there was a torchwood in both universes, then the point of divergence must have come after the incident with the werewolf, because that was the reason torchwood was created. since this event was the same in both universes (they were one universe at that point), Rose could have been the starting point of torchwood in both instances. since she is a time traveller then she doesn't need to have existed in the alternate universe (universe b) bacause at that moment in time they were the same one - part of this universe (universe a)

if you see what i mean....

[Ice fyre]

I'm afraid to say Dave that I think that the explanations put forward by Crasihors and others are correct.

Up untill some point both of these realities were part of ours, some where (it might not have been the meeting with Queen Victoria that caused the separation with our reality) our timelines split.

Earth (the shows main reality) Cybermen I assume follow the traditional explanation (e.g Mondas the twin of earth creating cybermen them taking over and trying to get earth) but of course we must remmber that the time war can be used to explain some blips in the contiuity, I suspect this was brought in as a catch all explanation.

During the Charles Dickens episode I am sure the Gelf says many races were ripped from reality some wiped out.

[beeurd]

I confess I haven't read the entire thread. It's a bit of a headache. lol
As for the "Where's the parallel Doctor?" question.
Perhaps by their very nature, the Time Lords are beyond parallel dimensions, and aren't affected by them. Therefore, there is only one Doctor in the universe and any alternatives.
When they have technology such as the TARDIS, I don't see that being so impossible.
But then, it is 2am and I need sleep

[timelord4]

Mmm. Have to work on that one. Can see myself as being one Dr. living in parallel universes. Alto egos, so to say?

By very definition, time is a constant to each parallel universe, therefore the Time Lords can't be beyond parallel dimensions. They can however, travel through time AND dimensions.

That's worth pondering.

TL

[Dave]

Originally Posted by timelord4

By very definition, time is a constant to each parallel universe, therefore the Time Lords can't be beyond parallel dimensions. They can however, travel through time AND dimensions.

Well, he has been to N-Space in a radio play, spent a whole season in E-Space, and even lost Jamie and Zoe inside some weird alternative reality, but despite the name of the TARDIS he has never been able to travel through dimensions at will, not in the same way as he can through time.

[Interference]

There are two universes with two different sets of time lords, daleks cybermen etc. The evidence:

1: Look at the complete difference between the TARDIS as driven by Eccleston and Tennant and the original Mark IV. Does this new, organic object even resemble the one belonging to every doctor since Hartnell, not forgetting the TARDIS stolen by the Meddling Monk, the one created by the Daleks and that owned by the Master.

2: Queen Victoria instituted Torchwood, but no other Doctor has ever run up against it. In fact, UNIT, a government sponsored United Nations taskforce, actively encouraged the time lord's interference.

3 & 4: Cybermen were made by humans in the RTD universe. Daleks were totally scary and didn't have names in the universe we used to know.

5: In the universe we're currently looking in on, stone walls don't wobble so much.

Ergo, clearly it's an entirely other universe.

QED.

[daleksec]

[quote=Dave;728610]The Torchwood Institute on our Earth was created by Queen Victoria after she encountered the Doctor. If there was no parallel Earth Doctor to meet the parallel Earth Queen Victoria, there would be no parallel Earth Torchwood Institute created.

In a parallel world, trochwood could have easily been founded by a different person or created for a different reason. If we are talking about parallel universes we need to be aware that ANYTHING can change