AEGON. Just a lame thought.

[MIDNIGHT]

I know that most people out there think baby Aegon is d.e.a.d dead at the hands of Ser Gregor, but I've been wondering.I also realize that we have also beaten to death the possibility that he may have been switched by the likes of Varys or someone of importance prior to the sack of Kings Landing.Leaving us speculating whether or not Tywin would have noticed if the child with the smashed head had silver hair or not and blah blah blah a million other disclaimers..So it brings me to my little (CRACKPOT) thought.Tywin Lannister was not a stupid man. Gregor was a mean SOB but he was definetly loyal to his leige. Aery's pregnant wife and son had escaped Kingslanding (heirs to the Iron Throne). Now following how the story has progressed so far , when a castle or keep falls highborn lord/ladies are held for ransom or as hostages to keep their remaining family members in line.So why would Tywin allow 2 excellent barganing chips be put to death. Gregor certainly could have acted on his own accord, but me thinks not!I think that Tywin may be holding 1 or possibly 2 heirs to the Iron Throne at Lannisport.He was also not the kind of man to share his secrets so why not!Also if for any reason Dany or Viserys showed up with an army he would have means to cow them. Just a thought .FIRE AWAY!!

[Boaz]

I love crackpot theories!

Pro: I remember somewhere that Martin mentioned that someone, who years ago offended Tywin Lannister, was rumored to still be in a dungeon under Caterly Rock.

Con: Tywin told Tyrion (iirc) in ASOS, in the Tyrion chapter immediately following the Red Wedding, that he neglected to specifically tell Gregor not to rape Elia, but that he did let Gregor and Amory know that Rhaegar's children had to die. He told Tyrion that Robert needed proof of Tywin's loyalty since Tywin came so late to Robert's cause... and killing Targaryen heirs severed all Lannister ties and loyalties to House Targaryen. Tywin seems to tell all this to Tyrion to teach him how to lead... but then again, Tywin might have been lying to cover his actions.

[Aegon the Unworthy]

No such things as lame thoughts, only lame people.....well thats paraphrasing.

Around here all crackpot theories get what support we can muster (and then we pick the support apart.) And I have been promised that we cant call you an idiot til yer 18th post. Oops, Id be careful, yer past that.

Anyhow, based on Gregors testimony to the Red Viper as he killed him and Tywins testimony to Tyrion Im gonna have to say theyre D E A D, dead....

But, there is a theory floated around that one of the children lived and is currently the Lord Commander of the Nightswatch. Personally I like the other ideas about Jons parentage....

And someone floated the idea that the Darkstar is a Targ offspring, but its been mentioned that the ages dont line up....But he has PURPLE EYES!!!.

But for those to be true why would Tywin have coughed em up? But I wouldnt be suprised if Tywin has a "Man in an Iron Mask" down in his dungeon somewhere with purple eyes. Gregor doesnt strike me as delicate enough to pull this off, but you never know.

[Funky Cthulu]

Originally Posted by Aegon the Unworthy

No such things as lame thoughts, only lame people.....well thats paraphrasing.

Around here all crackpot theories get what support we can muster (and then we pick the support apart.) And I have been promised that we cant call you an idiot til yer 18th post. Oops, Id be careful, yer past that.

Anyhow, based on Gregors testimony to the Red Viper as he killed him and Tywins testimony to Tyrion Im gonna have to say theyre D E A D, dead....

But, there is a theory floated around that one of the children lived and is currently the Lord Commander of the Nightswatch. Personally I like the other ideas about Jons parentage....

And someone floated the idea that the Darkstar is a Targ offspring, but its been mentioned that the ages dont line up....But he has PURPLE EYES!!!.

But for those to be true why would Tywin have coughed em up? But I wouldnt be suprised if Tywin has a "Man in an Iron Mask" down in his dungeon somewhere with purple eyes. Gregor doesnt strike me as delicate enough to pull this off, but you never know.

Another issue - could children survive growing up in a dungeon? They probably didn't throw them into a dank cell, but it would be difficult for distressed children who'd lost their mother (unless she's alive too) to thrive, even in a nice airy room. And I think Tywin would fear they would fall into the hands of his enemys and raise a challenge to Roberts or Cersei's children's rule. It would always be a liability.

[KiwiBird]

the caged animals in the zoo live and breed, why wouldn't humans be the same. People will do almost anything to survive, it is the core of our being, we just dont want to admit we are but mortal and thus doomed to die

[Funky Cthulu]

Originally Posted by KiwiBird

the caged animals in the zoo live and breed, why wouldn't humans be the same. People will do almost anything to survive, it is the core of our being, we just dont want to admit we are but mortal and thus doomed to die

Well, I'm personally OK with dying one day - I don't intend to be offensive, but I think that statement sounds good without really meaning anything.
Actually, I believe caged animals are notoriously difficult to get to mate and reproduce - particularly panda's and gorillas. So its one thing for a child to survive, but a baby that hasn't been weaned yet?

However, doesn't Edric Dayne have *almost* purple eyes? I didn't understand why he would be running around with Dondarrion's band, but it seemed relevant that Arya noted that he had interesting eyes...can't recall the hair colour. Who better to entrust your young child to than the most loyal member of your Kingsguard and his family?

[Trey Greyjoy]

Originally Posted by Aegon the Unworthy

Anyhow, based on Gregors testimony to the Red Viper as he killed him and Tywins testimony to Tyrion Im gonna have to say theyre D E A D, dead....

Im of the same mind. I think the moment to announce that anyone might still be alive would be with Gregor dying on the ground...announcing that he didnt kill the child just prior to crushing the skull of the Red Viper would have had a far more profound effect on the reader, not that it needed to be any more shocking!

[the smiling weirwood]

The Darkstar has purple eyes because he's a Dayne. The Daynes all have purple eyes. I've got to calling them the purple herrings, because they all look like Targaryens but arent.

[Boaz]

Growing up in a dungeon? Kaspar Hauser? Anyone?

[the smiling weirwood]

I would have stuck them in the bell towers.....

[Werthead]

This particular crackpot theory has been fuelled by GRRM himself. Someone asked him, "Are Elia's children really dead?" at a signing, and GRRM's response was, "Well, certainly Rhaenyra died..." and didn't mention Aegon. Add in Rhaegar's belief that Aegon was the Song of Ice and Fire in Dany's vision in Qarth, and you have actually a perfectly respectable theory, and one that will almost certainly be addressed in ADWD.

Since Aegon was only one year old at the time, it would have been easy to substitute another young child for him and smuggle him to sympathisers in the Free Cities. And one of Rhaegar's best friends, Jon Connington, was in exile in the Free Cities at the time...

[Dolorous Edd]

Originally Posted by Werthead

This particular crackpot theory has been fuelled by GRRM himself. Someone asked him, "Are Elia's children really dead?" at a signing, and GRRM's response was, "Well, certainly Rhaenyra died..." and didn't mention Aegon.

I've never understood why authors always give elusive answers to questions like this, regarding major plot events. What I call the Aes Sedai effect. They don't want to answer the question as it will spoil their life's work, and yet for some bizarre reason they're incapable of just plain lying. I mean what will happen? In 10 years time we'll go! "Oh my god! He lied to us! Which meant we didn't twig the ending, and thus enjoyed it immensely! BURN HIM!"

[Boaz]

If an author or director gets me to suspend my disbelief, then I almost always stop guessing while I'm reading or watching and just enjoy the story... I end up not looking at the future or even trying to connect the dots in the past. For example, while watching The Sixth Sense I became caught up in the characters and their circumstances during each moment and I did not relate previous events or look into the characters futures... consequently I missed all the signs. I was floored when the wife dropped the ring... at that moment it all came flooding back to me. Then I watched the movie again with Shyamalan's commentary. He thought that every scene was a dead giveaway (pardon the pun) and he worried all along that people would catch on quickly. The scene where the boy says, "I see dead people" bothered him so much that he wanted to cut it. But his advisors all told him to leave it in.

I wonder how much Martin thinks this way. Is he thinking, "In Eddard's last dream I gave away the ending to book seven! They are all going to see it and I'll be ruined!" I imagine he believes that he's given so many obvious clues that the ending can't remain a secret any longer. He must wonder about this. A movie is one and a half to three hours... and we don't have years in between scenes to log onto the web and discuss the movie. He must have good advisors and sounding boards for his writings.

A further comment on loose threads and layers upon layers of plots. I love it how Martin introduces themes early on in AGOT and ACOK, but only starts to develop that theme later in ASOS and AFFC. Specifically, the Greyjoys. In AGOT we learn, though it seems unimportant, that Theon's brothers died in a previous rebellion, that Theon has a sister, and that Theon has uncles. In ACOK we learn one uncle is pious, one is a renegade, one is loyal, that Asha is headstrong, that Balon will rebel again, and that none of the Greyjoys respect Theon. But not until AFFC do these facts become fleshed out as major plot lines. Even so, it is evident that Martin put those facts in the earlier books to set the stage.

I detest it when an author introduces the hingepin of the whole story at the last moment. Agatha Christie is notorious in my book for doing this. Who did it? The butler or the maid? Please tell me Miss Marple! A

nd Miss Marple answers... Neither one... it was that man, yes, you. You are the former chauffeur who knew the secret combination to the safe... You are left handed, but you stabbed him with your right hand to fool the police... You were the only one aware of his affair with the red headed gay dwarf, because the dwarf is your brother... You secretly substituted double malt whiskey for bourbon... You studied to be a priest and a lounge singer so you know how to charm people... But the fact that the victim had a chauffeur, was stabbed from the left side, had a short gay lover, was allergic to bourbon and was charmed by pious singing was never mentioned in the story until Miss Marple solved the crime.

The only time I've felt that Martin has introduced a new plot out of the blue is concerning the valonqar. Valonqar was not mentioned in the first three books and Cersei is a main player in all three books. But AFFC is the first time we get her POV. I now think Martin had this in mind way back, but when I first read it I thought it was creatio ex nihilo.

[the smiling weirwood]

Well thanks, you just ruined the Sixth Sense for me...

All good points though.

Werthead, where do you learn these things(Jon Connigton)? I don't remember them from the books and they're not on GRRM's site but you always have these little facts...

[KiwiBird]

Originally Posted by Funky Cthulu

Well, I'm personally OK with dying one day - I don't intend to be offensive, but I think that statement sounds good without really meaning anything.
Actually, I believe caged animals are notoriously difficult to get to mate and reproduce - particularly panda's and gorillas. So its one thing for a child to survive, but a baby that hasn't been weaned yet?

However, doesn't Edric Dayne have *almost* purple eyes? I didn't understand why he would be running around with Dondarrion's band, but it seemed relevant that Arya noted that he had interesting eyes...can't recall the hair colour. Who better to entrust your young child to than the most loyal member of your Kingsguard and his family?

Your words only confirm mine, you are pefectly OK to die ONE DAY, one day in the Future somewhere, but not now, not today, and so it will likely be up until the point when you are either a very old man, a depressed one or so completely scarred and handicapped that death would be welcome, in any other cases you woul wish to remain alive and stay prefectly OK with dying one day. Pandas and Gorillas live dont they, and they do mate, with difficulty perhaps but it happens, there are many cases in wich animals survive, there are even kangooroos who managed to surivive angaainst all odds, whom mothers have died while they where still in their "sacky thing", they had to be watched constantly, and put in a specially fabric home-made sack, and fed with specialmade food, but survive they did.

It could be that you are a exception but they only confirm the rule so they say. The most crackpot theory of all proves this, the one that there is supposed to be live after death, that we will ascend to heaven and live in heaven with the creator, or that we never truly die but our souls are reborn from animal to animal. (The only thing i believe is that indeed are dead bodies are used as furtiliser for for the ground, and that thus some of our energy lives on, not that it is our energy still at this pint though). Truly, if it where not for mans kind desire to beat death, and to keep on living, then these theories would not have found such widespread following. one can argue that a lot of that support is there for other reasons, other parts of that religion, but one cannot help but notice that that underlining thought is always there. (If i live good, i will be rewarded by the Lord, if you attack Americans you get rewarded by 100 virgins in the afterlife, you get to eat rice with golden spoons,.... )

Religion is founded to help us life and cope with our fears, and the most prominent of that is our own mortality.

Ow and the dayne kid is there, because Dondarrion is betrothed to one of starfall, and he upon that became his squire. As for his importance, you can only speculate