Who is Robbs heir?

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Im now officially at the point where my larger ideas are tapped out and am setting forth to clarify minor points

Okay let me set the stage for ya....

Robb thinks both his brothers are dead, Arya and Sansa are captives...he says to Cat..."Im going to legitimize Jon"....they argue....he turns to his council and asks them to attend him because he wants them to witness something....and then fade to black.

Now Robb has his reasons for legitimizing Jon, but he is Eddards son and as such would respect the Night's Watch vows as much as the next man. There is precedent for him arguing with his mother (playing the boy as she puts it), then being the man in front of the men and making the hard decision.

I am personally of the belief that anytime a writer makes you think a thing is happening then doesnt show it "on screen" so to speak, its because it didnt happen quite the way you would think.

So thats three reasons against Jon, the only major one for Jon being legitimized as heir to Winterfell would be there really is no one else I can think of.

So pray tell people...who is the heir to winterfell after Robb?

[KiwiBird]

Even if Jon is legitimized he still is a man of the night's watch, therefore he cannot be heir of winterfell anymore.

Bran is alive, and thus the Heir, now since he probably won't be able to have children, it will be Rickon's who will inherit when Bran dies, that is to say if Rickon lives long enough to have children

[Werthead]

Right, now that Robb is dead his 'proper' heir is Bran. However, Bran and Rickon are both thought dead. The world at large would now consider Sansa to be his heir, but she is missing, also thought dead. Thus Arya would be the heir, but she is also missing, but is being impersonated (possibly by Jeyne Poole) by a girl now enconsconed at the Dreadfort and about to be married off to Ramsey Snow.

So as far as the Seven Kingdoms overall is concerned, the fake Arya at the Dreadfort is the publicly-acknowledged heir to Winterfell. Littlefinger and Sansa herself thinks it's Sansa. Sam Tarly, Gilly, Osha, Rickon, Bran, Jojen, Meera and Theon all know it's Bran who's the heir.

As for the Jon Snow connection, Jon would have to be legitimised by a king to become Lord of Winterfell. He turned this down from Stannis, so I don't see him forsaking the Watch so easily. Lady Maege Mormont of Bear Island and Lord Galbart Glover of Deepwood Motte both escaped the Red Wedding (since Robb sent them to contact Howland Reed at Greywater Watch), so they know that Robb wanted to legitimise Jon, but how that news would affect Jon is unclear. I think the Wall would have to fall and the Watch be destroyed for Jon to seriously consider taking up that office.

There are also minor branches of House Stark in White Harbour and Barrowton who may have a claim on Winterfell, and the Karstarks also have a claim going back several centuries through their founder who was a younger son of House Stark.

[the smiling weirwood]

Werthead has stated it beautifully. It's up in the air right now, and I don't see anything about it happening soon as Westoros is still pretty much in a state of chaos. Winterfell itself is destroyed so the only value would be in the title.

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Originally Posted by Werthead

Right, now that Robb is dead his 'proper' heir is Bran. However, Bran and Rickon are both thought dead. The world at large would now consider Sansa to be his heir, but she is missing, also thought dead. Thus Arya would be the heir, but she is also missing, but is being impersonated (possibly by Jeyne Poole) by a girl now enconsconed at the Dreadfort and about to be married off to Ramsey Snow.

So as far as the Seven Kingdoms overall is concerned, the fake Arya at the Dreadfort is the publicly-acknowledged heir to Winterfell. Littlefinger and Sansa herself thinks it's Sansa. Sam Tarly, Gilly, Osha, Rickon, Bran, Jojen, Meera and Theon all know it's Bran who's the heir.

As for the Jon Snow connection, Jon would have to be legitimised by a king to become Lord of Winterfell. He turned this down from Stannis, so I don't see him forsaking the Watch so easily. Lady Maege Mormont of Bear Island and Lord Galbart Glover of Deepwood Motte both escaped the Red Wedding (since Robb sent them to contact Howland Reed at Greywater Watch), so they know that Robb wanted to legitimise Jon, but how that news would affect Jon is unclear. I think the Wall would have to fall and the Watch be destroyed for Jon to seriously consider taking up that office.

There are also minor branches of House Stark in White Harbour and Barrowton who may have a claim on Winterfell, and the Karstarks also have a claim going back several centuries through their founder who was a younger son of House Stark.

Two things...yes Bran is the heir to Winterfell, but Robb thought he was dead. All things being equal if he named someone heir to his title of King in the North then that someone is heir. If as you suppose he legitimized Jon, then that makes him heir except for that pesky oath. So what if the others are defeated? Does the oath get fulfilled if theres no one (and nothing) left north of the wall?

And lastly he did something to the line of succession in that council chamber...Im not sold on his naming of Jon. I want to point out we never actually see him name Jon. I see many posts about how he legitimized Jon as fact. We dont see it happen. Theres a reason why it was done away from Cats POV. I could believe it was removing Sansa and Arya from the line so they cant be used against him. But no man fights a battle without having an heir, thats suicide. So think on this...who is the one man you trust not to screw Jeyne over? Who is the one man who is still family left in your inner circle and who has the loyalty and honor the north would rally around? Who is the one man of prominence in your army you dont take into the Red Wedding? Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Brynden Tully. I think its possible that he named that man regent....

Its actually perfect...he's connected enough not to cause a stir when named. He's disconnected enough if any of the children somehow make it back (Arya and Sansa...and an imagined possibility of Jeyne being pregnant at some point) the lords would rally to the real Starks.

And it causes real problems now that Brynden is running around unfettered.

Please discuss.

[Boaz]

Originally Posted by Aegon the Unworthy

Bran is the heir to Winterfell, but Robb thought he was dead. All things being equal if he named someone heir to his title of King in the North then that someone is heir.

Except for the fact that the Crown, in Lannister hands, will never recognize any proclaimations by the King in the North (unless it was in their best intrest to do so)... the Crown considered him to be in unlawful rebellion. It does not matter who Robb named as heir, who he gave lands or title to, nor who he legitimized. The Lannisters can legally set aside any decisions Robb made.

But I do agree, that according to Stark loyalists and Northmen, all of Robb's decisions were legal and binding.... there's the rub.

Originally Posted by Aegon the Unworthy

Brynden Tully. I think its possible that he named that man regent...

Interesting. You chose "regent" and not "heir" for the Blackfish. Brynden is well known for his disdain for marriage, so he'd be unlikely to produce an heir himself. But, Regent of the North... Brynden most likely knew almost all of Robb's plans, ideas, hopes, and contingencies. He'll work hard to fulfill Robb's wishes.

Here's another idea... Robb thought Bran and Rickon were dead and as Aegon said perhaps Robb passed them over so that they could not be used against him while they were in Lannister hands, so Robb needed an heir. His followers needed this assurance. Robb was trying to get his wife pregnant, but it seemed slow going. He needed a relative, but Jon was too far away, too commited to the Wall, and too bastardized to be a real option. Brynden will not have any offspring, so he's also out. The only male relatives left would be Robert Arryn and Edmure Tully. Catelyn would never have allowed Robb to let Lyssa control both the Vale and the North, so Edmure is the only one left.

Ed might be heir to the North and if he has a son born into Lannister hands, the Lannisters can always use that over Bolton's head if it suits their purpose.

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Originally Posted by Boaz

Except for the fact that the Crown, in Lannister hands, will never recognize any proclaimations by the King in the North (unless it was in their best intrest to do so)... the Crown considered him to be in unlawful rebellion. It does not matter who Robb named as heir, who he gave lands or title to, nor who he legitimized. The Lannisters can legally set aside any decisions Robb made.

But I do agree, that according to Stark loyalists and Northmen, all of Robb's decisions were legal and binding.... there's the rub.

Interesting. You chose "regent" and not "heir" for the Blackfish. Brynden is well known for his disdain for marriage, so he'd be unlikely to produce an heir himself. But, Regent of the North... Brynden most likely knew almost all of Robb's plans, ideas, hopes, and contingencies. He'll work hard to fulfill Robb's wishes.

Here's another idea... Robb thought Bran and Rickon were dead and as Aegon said perhaps Robb passed them over so that they could not be used against him while they were in Lannister hands, so Robb needed an heir. His followers needed this assurance. Robb was trying to get his wife pregnant, but it seemed slow going. He needed a relative, but Jon was too far away, too commited to the Wall, and too bastardized to be a real option. Brynden will not have any offspring, so he's also out. The only male relatives left would be Robert Arryn and Edmure Tully. Catelyn would never have allowed Robb to let Lyssa control both the Vale and the North, so Edmure is the only one left.

Ed might be heir to the North and if he has a son born into Lannister hands, the Lannisters can always use that over Bolton's head if it suits their purpose.

I acknowledge that this is all through the eyes of the north. Those pesky Lannisters or whomever would obviously believe Arya-clone is the only true claimant.

I did choose the term regent instead of heir...its a very important distinction and one I would think Robb would see....and I think Boaz complimented me...Im all giddy on the inside...a regent could be easily placed aside if one of the true heirs somehow appeared...speaking of Arya and Sansa, not Bran and Rick. Hes certain those two boys are dead....Mayhaps he kills the Imp like he planned and suddenly Sansa can now wed again. So you name the Blackfish regent in event of your death and then he must decide (at the permission of the remaining lords of the north) who would replace him. And if no one with a better claim shows up, well then you have complete anarchy as everyone vies for the throne.

The absolutely only problem I see with Edmure is (and I guess its twofold), he's a spineless jellyfish and the North wouldnt accept him. Would Robb realize this and bypass him? Or would he remain loyal to family, because Ed would be his closest male relative and have a stronger claim to the Northern Throne than Brynden...well I think anyhow.

So in summation...when Robb closed the doors and shut Cat out of the council chamber I think he removed both Arya and Sansa from the possible inheritors and placed Brynden as Regent post-mortis (I made up a title whoopee!!!) in one fell swoop. I think he shut Cat out so she wouldnt know he just removed her daughters from succession. I think the whole talk with Cat about legitimizing Jon was in order to avoid removing the girls. If Jon is legal then his claim (excluding that pesky wall oath of course) would supercede the girls.

[KiwiBird]

Edmure spinless, now where did that come from?

As for Lord of Winterfell being an empty title, it seems clear that not whole winterfell is destroyed and the most important parts seemed reasonable intact.

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Originally Posted by KiwiBird

Edmure spinless, now where did that come from?

As for Lord of Winterfell being an empty title, it seems clear that not whole winterfell is destroyed and the most important parts seemed reasonable intact.

I meant spineless jellyfish...as in he seeks to conform to whatever the situation around him is (pliable, like a jellyfish)...and not in a good way. Oh...and he whines a lot.

[TK-421]

Just wait for 4 important things to happen that will decide all in terms of the North:

1) Asha breaks Theon out of prison

2) The Others come marching over the Wall (after smashing it).

3) Bran meets the three-eyed crow (...and I don't remember any reference to his inabilities to have children...and he's only 12 or 13).

4) Dany invades and with the help of some advisors (Tyrion, Sansa, Quentyn, Jon, etc.) sets things right.

[Dolorous Edd]

Originally Posted by TK-421

Just wait for 4 important things to happen that will decide all in terms of the North:

1) Asha breaks Theon out of prison

2) The Others come marching over the Wall (after smashing it).

3) Bran meets the three-eyed crow (...and I don't remember any reference to his inabilities to have children...and he's only 12 or 13).

4) Dany invades and with the help of some advisors (Tyrion, Sansa, Quentyn, Jon, etc.) sets things right.

Erm, he's paralysed from the waist down?

[TK-421]

A little bit of cold and crow will do him good

[AryaUnderfoot]

Originally Posted by Dolorous Edd

Erm, he's paralysed from the waist down?

Okay so he's not exactly going to be a stallion. But does that automatically mean that he can't procreate?

[KiwiBird]

Usually that means he cant at least in Real Life

[the smiling weirwood]

He's not paralyzed per se, it's just that his legs are shattered. The feeling in his legs is gone, but that doesn't mean his um...other feelings are gone. It's not as if his spine was injured.