Who is Robbs heir?

[JohnSnow]

By the way Stannis and Stark are quite different from each other. Stannis is only concerned with what he deserves by right. Ned was only concerned with doing the right thing. Stannis has a tainted sense of honor.

Ned could write a canon on being honorable.

*snow*

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Originally Posted by JohnSnow

What aid did he finally offer?

All he accomplished was holding off the execution of his friend a few days, getting his family destroyed, etc..

I do agree with you on one hand, that a man should "help a brotha out", but you knew the first time you read the book going to King's Landing was bad news. I love everyone in my family dearly, but let a one of them become a danger to my child and it is hitting the fan. Your children should come first. If that isn't the case don't have more!

I had never thought of it this way until reading devilsgrin's comment, but if Ned cared more about honor than his family than he deserved his fate. I have always respected Ned for his honor and integrity. If everyone on this board agrees that his family was just a by-product to be thrown carelessly aside then so be it. Ned was not the man I thought him to be.

This is one of those things that I really feel theres no debate on. Ned went to KL to help a friend in a predicament, thats a good thing. The fact that he did not help is irrelevant to the discussion. Yes we could see it coming through the lense of hindsight but Ned did not have that benefit. I also think that if someone told Ned he would be beheaded he still would have gone. He's the type of person who could not live with himself otherwise.

As for throwing family away...thats just a load. First and foremost, Robert was family as well. Saying he threw Catelyn and Co to the wolves for a non-family member is a fallacy. Secondly, his family was in no danger at this point. Yes he put them at risk by engaging in the game but that was unavoidable, and he would have done things different had he known the rest of his family would be killed but he didnt know that.

Throwing family away for honor, pftt!....To someone like Ned family and honor are so intrinsicly intertwined there is little difference in the two.

Thanks

[KiwiBird]

Jon Arryn was like a second father to Ned, so he was especially honourbound to go.

The problem with ned was not his honor, it was his mercy that cost him his life in the game of thrones

[the smiling weirwood]

bleargh...Why do I try talk about my least favorite character(Stannis) when I'm out of it? In my desperate attempt to disengage anything remotely smacking of Stannis from other characters I think I made a fool of myself. Anyway, I agree with Boaz.

[devilsgrin]

having thought about this a little, i'd have to agree that stannis does not act out of honour - per se - but indeed out of his own sense of justice. which IS intrinsically linked to his honour.
I do still think that Ned chose honor over his immediate family... Yes i agree that Jon Arryn was like his father and investigating his death was important to him, and that Robert had indeed been like a brother to Ned - though time had clearly changed Robert Baratheon into someone entirely different to the friend that Ned knew. But taking his children with him! what utter foolishness.
The first moment i realised Ned would choose honor over his family was when he killed Lady. For no reason other than Cercei and Joffery wanted revenge on a wolf, any wolf. He broke Sansa's heart for no reason costing both of his daughters their dire wolves. He was Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North and Hand of the King, he was in no real danger at that point...he was doing Robert a favour by becoming Hand, as Robert well knew.

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Originally Posted by devilsgrin

having thought about this a little, i'd have to agree that stannis does not act out of honour - per se - but indeed out of his own sense of justice. which IS intrinsically linked to his honour.
I do still think that Ned chose honor over his immediate family... Yes i agree that Jon Arryn was like his father and investigating his death was important to him, and that Robert had indeed been like a brother to Ned - though time had clearly changed Robert Baratheon into someone entirely different to the friend that Ned knew. But taking his children with him! what utter foolishness.
The first moment i realised Ned would choose honor over his family was when he killed Lady. For no reason other than Cercei and Joffery wanted revenge on a wolf, any wolf. He broke Sansa's heart for no reason costing both of his daughters their dire wolves. He was Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North and Hand of the King, he was in no real danger at that point...he was doing Robert a favour by becoming Hand, as Robert well knew.

No he killed Lady because it was at the order of the king. Not because Joff or Cersei desired it. He chose not to disobey the lawful order of his king and go to war over a wolf. Whats the option if Ned refuses? Robert is forced to declare him a traitor. Then what happens to his family? Personally I think he chose family over personal honor in this one. Yes it was not his brightest moment but sometimes honor is horribly cruel sword.

Im still trying to understand how going to Kings Landing is choosing honor over family. Was his immediate family in peril from something? Were the wildlings invading? Were the Ironborn coming to town and bringing lots of toys and goodies? Its not "choosing" one side over the other if youre not giving anything up on the other. Maybe no one sees this but me, but Ned didnt forsake his family because he went south, but he would be forsaking his blood brother if he did not.

I wont defend taking the girls with him. Its a plot device and I dont think the idealized Ned would do...but yer right it was a lame move.

[the smiling weirwood]

It was an attempt to bring his family with him and he and Catelyn were probably hoping to find suitable marriages for them and polish Arya up a bit in the Southron court.

[Funky Cthulu]

Plus if he came himself and left his family, that may have alerted Roberts enemies that Ned was preparing for an attack. He was in a double bind - leave the family at home and appear suspiciously untrusting (thus undoing his chances to move before the Lannisters did and safeguard Roberts life) or bring them and risk their safety if things went bad.

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Fair nuff tsw, I was just thinking if Ned really thought there was a chance of danger why would he bring the kids....but its one of those issues I dont really care that much to argue. It had to happen for the story and quite frankly thats enough for me.

[Funky Cthulu]

Originally Posted by Aegon the Unworthy

Fair nuff tsw, I was just thinking if Ned really thought there was a chance of danger why would he bring the kids....but its one of those issues I dont really care that much to argue. It had to happen for the story and quite frankly thats enough for me.

No stress, its been a good thread and I enjoy having to think about these things. My sister (whom I have just introduced to the books) has just read about the Red Wedding and when I asked her about what she thought Ned should have done calmly replied "Well, its obvious so far that no matter what they do, they'll have a horrible ending, so they might as well just do as they please!"

[Funky Cthulu]

Originally Posted by Aegon the Unworthy

Fair nuff tsw, I was just thinking if Ned really thought there was a chance of danger why would he bring the kids....but its one of those issues I dont really care that much to argue. It had to happen for the story and quite frankly thats enough for me.

No stress, its been a good thread and I enjoy having to think about these things. My sister (whom I have just introduced to the books) has just read about the Red Wedding and when I asked her about what she thought Ned should have done calmly replied "Well, its obvious so far that no matter what they do, they'll have a horrible ending, so they might as well just do as they please!"

[the smiling weirwood]

Perhaps I am too naive but so far all the characters seem to act true to themselves. Unlike other books(Jordan and Erikson come to mind) the characters do not seem to do completely unnatural things for plot. I just don't see any of that with Martin.

[KiwiBird]

In case you lot are forgetting Rober is king atm and cersei king, now you can hardly refuse them in certain matters.

As for bringing his family, may i remind you lot that at that particular point Joffrey was engaged to Sansa. He left Robb and Rickon home with Catelyn.

Bran and Arya had to come with him as well, but for Bran the reason was that he was a boy quick to laugh, it was in the hopes of bettering the relation between Joffrey and the rest of the Starks (wich in time if things had not evolved the way they did would have helped the stark Family).

As for Arya, one has to consider that in that society she in her role at that moment needed a bit of primping, wich the royal court would be a lot more helpful at then staying in Winterfell. Also i have a personal feeling that Arya was (besides/together with Jon maybe) his favourite. It is obvious to me he loved Lyanna, in the same way it is obvious to me that Ned is reminded of Lyanna by Arya. Perhaps he is loath to part from her, especially when you consider what happened to lyanna wishing to keep her thus close for various (family reasons). Ned to me was a man of honor, but even more a family man proven by the fact that in the end he chose indeed his family over honor and thus proclaiming himself a traitor in the eyes of the rest of the realm.

[devilsgrin]

I had not forgotten that Robert was the King, nor Cercei his queen. No they could not be ignored in certain matters, i'd say Robert could not be ignored in any matters, but Cercei is entirely different. Being Queen grants her almost no authority whatsoever that Robert doesn't agree to. At this point she really is nothing more than a dangerous woman playing games with the men around her. It is the threat of the Lannisters that gives Cercei a small sliver of power - which we learn she grew to enjoy and craved ever more. Without the power of the Lannisters behind her, Cercei was nothing more than the Lady of the Red Keep, and mother to the king's heirs.
Ignoring a person and obeying or disobeying an injust order are not the same thing. Eddard Stark is a far more powerful personage than Cercei Lannister. He is, for all intents and purposes the King in the North, with the title altered to Warden of the North. If he were a more able politician he would have realised the enormous leverage he had in any situation. Alas for him and all Starks, he did not realise his own power, relied too much on the supposed authority of the office of the Hand of the King, and relied to much on the honour of others, for which he ended up beheaded and his House all-buit annihilated.

[KiwiBird]

Lolz, a queen does have some power man. Besides Robert agrees with it.
So instead of just watch when Ilyn Payne performs the King's Order he decides to do it himself for various reasons. Wich to me is a character treat that should be applauded, not hated.