Who is Robbs heir?

[KiwiBird]

so far only Eddard sacrificed himself

[Wiggum]

ARGH! Why is it that everyone wants Jon to break his vows?

I know you and AryaUnderfool and I don't.

Even though he alreasy has, lol.

My favorite character is Lord Snow.

But to get back to the parchment that was signed and sealed before Robb died.

He had them stamp a proclomation which by virtue of that act leaves one person as his HEIR.

Not his regent.

Jon, at some point, is going to have to refuse Winterfell, again.

[the smiling weirwood]

If anyone recognizes that proclamation as anything more than toilet paper. But perhaps the true test for Jon will be knowing that Robb wanted him to be the Lord of Winterfell.

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Originally Posted by Wiggum

But to get back to the parchment that was signed and sealed before Robb died.

He had them stamp a proclomation which by virtue of that act leaves one person as his HEIR.

Not his regent.

Jon, at some point, is going to have to refuse Winterfell, again.

Whoa whoa, slow down there Chief...There is absolutely no indication of what was actually in his little missive. It could be anything, he could be declaring Hawaiin shirt tuesdays in the North for all we know. We assume its about his legacy based on his conversation with his mother. With that assumption in mind, why would a king proclaim his older half-brother his heir, when he's married with the possibility of his wife being pregnant right now, and the possibility he could die tomorrow. And Robb still has one younger sister unaccounted for and another quite alive and in the hands of the enemy, why screw them out of their fathers legacy at the same time?

Of course at the end, its all GRRMs perogative to do what he wants regardless of whatever logic we ascribe to the characters. I will be disappointed if Jon is named heir to Winterfell as that flies in the face of what Robb was raised to believe.

Eddard would turn over in his grave....and then rise up and come south with the rest of the wights.

[Dolorous Edd]

Doesn’t normally happened Aegon, but I disagree with pretty much everything you just said And for the very reasons you yourself mentioned!

Originally Posted by Aegon the Unworthy

why would a king proclaim his older half-brother his heir, when he's married with the possibility of his wife being pregnant right now, and the possibility he could die tomorrow.

Exactly. He knows he could die tomorrow, and he doesn't think he's going to be run over by a bus. Should he die tomorrow, the North would need a King then and there, not 16-18 years in the future.

Originally Posted by Aegon the Unworthy

And Robb still has one younger sister unaccounted for and another quite alive and in the hands of the enemy, why screw them out of their fathers legacy at the same time?

Again, exactly! Arya is unaccounted for. I don't think any of the Stark's besides Jon ever truly understood Arya, or saw her unusual ways as anything other than childishness and a stubborn refusal to grow up and take responsibility. I think Catelyn later on realises that of the two Arya would probably have the better chance of surviving in the real world, but I don't think she holds out much hope. Arya is an 8 year old girl alone in the world, she is the daughter of one of House Lannister's greatest Enemies, the sister to their Nemesis. She is one of the most valuable assets on Westeros. It would be unthinkable for Robb to base the future on the North on the hope that she is somehow alive and free.

As for Sansa, again you said it. Not only is she in the hands of the enemy, she's in littlefinger's hands! I can't remember how much of the event's at King's Landing have filtered out, but at the very least Robb must be suspicious of LF's role in his father's betrayal. Added to that he knows that out of all of the Stark children Sansa is the one least capable of ruling a nation, let alone a nation at war.

Originally Posted by Aegon the Unworthy

Eddard would turn over in his grave....and then rise up and come south with the rest of the Wight’s.

That's just plain wrong!

Robb believes Jon to be Ned's son, Ned treated and loved Jon like his own son. Given that all the rest of the family are "dead" or out of play, he would be the first to tell him to bump Jon up the line of succession. Hell, given the state of Westeros, and what's happening north of the wall (Dear god, imagine how different events would have been had Ned still been alive and Warden of the North/King's Hand when Mormont's letter/the Wight’s hand arrived in KL!) even if the other kid's were alive and well I’m sure he would have advocated Jon's being named, at least as regent until Bran came of age.

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Originally Posted by Dolorous Edd

Doesn’t normally happened Aegon, but I disagree with pretty much everything you just said And for the very reasons you yourself mentioned!

How I wish I could type clever things like that Dolorous....seriously. Im just not that clever....sarcastic yes, clever, sadly no....

Now on to the meat of the discussion...

Just to nitpick a couple of points first...Robb doesnt know at this time that Sansa is at the Eyrie. He thinks (and rightfully so) that Sansa is married to Tyrion and the only way to make things work out with her properly is to lop off Tyrions head. And I could be wrong but the Lannisters had pretended at this time that they had Arya. She was not wed off but soon would be I guess. So any discussion of Sansa being with Littlefinger is moot, and Ill await judgement on Arya til someone says yeah or nay to the other part.

I agree that putting Jon on the "throne" of Winterfell would be exactly what Robb would be taught to do. Of course not at the expense of his siblings. By making Jon his heir if he dies tomorrow, he cuts any possibility that Sansa or Arya could inherit. Eddard wouldnt have advised that, because of the political problems that would create, Catelyns and his "lords" reactions, and because it would cut his two legitimate sisters out of the inheritance. That part about Eddard turning over in his grave directly spoke to those issues, nothing other.

Now my response was merely in response to Wiggums declarative statement that Robb legitimized Jon. Theres so much more going on than a simple yes or no.

You say he needs an heir because he's at war, I say then Jon is the worst possible choice....oathbreaker, bastard-born, not recognized by the previous Lord Stark (why is his name still Snow I wonder) most of the Lords would refuse to follow such a man. There is no worse time for a divided army than war-time right? And of course you realize if he names Jon heir, dies tomorrow, and Jeyne is pregnant (theyd been practicing or whatever cute thing she said), his own children will be left in the Snow so to speak.

Seriously, Regent Brynden is looking more and more attractive to me (umm purely in a non-sexual manner....)

And lastly of course, the piece of meta-thinking that trumps all.....why did George set the scene up and then have it happen off-screen like it did? Give me one solid reason why he would do that if Robb named Jon his heir and I'll step away from this argument (and I read yer comparison of Jordan and Martin's respective works earlier, so more solid that those please ). Other than artistic expression or something accidental I can only think of nefarious reasons.

[Wiggum]

And lastly of course, the piece of meta-thinking that trumps all.....why did George set the scene up and then have it happen off-screen like it did?

For fan boy discourse, of course.

But there are two possibilities for the parchment that was signed. Blackfish as regent (for who I would ask), and Jon as Lord of Winterfell, but not King of the North.

There isn't an established kingdom in the North. But Robb at that point believes it's close. A Lord of Winterfell in neccesary, one that grew up there.

Who, in that situation do you pass it on to. A brother that is a sworn warrior, or missing children, or another man from a different family altogether?

[Dolorous Edd]

Oops, forgot he didn't know about Sansa being at the Eyrie. (must re-read). But the same argument applies, save that he instead thinks she's in the hands of the lannisters, even worse, or dead. And married to a dwarf. She's out of play.

Arya, i don't think he knew of her did he? As it was thrown on us after the red wedding, when tyrion asks his father what the Bolton's get for their treachery and he says "Roose Bolton takes home Arya Stark". So again, she's a non issue as far as Robb is concerned.

As for Jon and his illegitimacy, were it a southern state I’d agree with you. They're far more fussy about blue blood down there. But the Northerners hark back to an older, darker, more primeval time. What they respect above all else is Strength. Consider Robb's ascension. He was Ned's firstborn son, his legitimate child beyond a shadow of a doubt. And yet the lords and ladies of the North were all for sitting him in his father's chair as a puppet Lord, and setting about the freeing of Ned without his input. Until he set Grey wind on the greatjon, and faced him down. The Northman are wolves in a very real sense, and although the Stark's have for thousands of years been the leaders of the pack, they have had to prove themselves stronger and more fit to rule than those around them. That's what caused the origins of the flayed man of Bolton was it not? The Stark's grew weak and the Bolton's scented blood. Just as they have done now.

IF Robb named his as his heir, that would be half the battle won, but Jon would still have to prove himself to them. Which he would certainly do. (he has a much cooler Wolf )

As for his child (and any of his sibling's who magically resurrect themselves) like I say, it may have been to name his as regent only.


I have to admit though I’m doing a Boaz here and arguing for arguments sake. I agree with you that the fact this was all done "off-screen" is strong suggestion for it being something completely unexpected. (/cue "Hodor for heir!" thread )

[Aegon the Unworthy]

You know I could accept a combo scenario, Robb gathers his lords, tells em X is my Regent until one of the line of Stark can claim the crown, oh and Jon is now legit.....all in one fell swoop.

Then fast forward a month to Winterfell....the crowd is gathered....theyre rabid, the new King in the North is to be announced....anticipation builds...."Oh my God!, thats Hodors music"....

[the smiling weirwood]

Hodor has a theme song?

[Aegon the Unworthy]

He should doncha think...Death Metal most likely, hes probably a thrasher of some sort.....

[Boaz]

Hodor's song is Dazed and Confused... or the theme to Forrest Gump... or mayhaps it is the theme song from the Teletubbies.

But to any of those, he'd just mumble or shout, "Hodor, hodor, hodor, hodor, hodor, hodor, hodor, hodor, hodor, hooooooooooooodor, hodor, hodor, hodor, hodor, hodor, hodor, hodor, hodor, hodor, hodor, hooooooooooooodor, hodor, hodor, hodor, hodor, hodor, hodor, hodor, hodor, hodor, hodor, hooooooooooooodor, hodor, hodor, hodor, hodor, hodor, hodor, hodor, hodor, hodor, hodor, hooooooooooooodor, hodor, hodor, hodooooooooooor..."

[Dolorous Edd]

Originally Posted by Boaz

or mayhaps it is the theme song from the Teletubbies.

On behalf of a shamed and disgusted nation, i would like to offer our sincere appologies for inflicting upon you guys the horror that is tinky-winky

[Boaz]

What if Bran, Rickon or Sansa finally gets Winterfell and the North back from the Boltons and then Brynden shows up with Robb's last will and testament making Jon, Arya, or Edmure's child the Lord/Lady of Winterfell? Would Bran, Rick, or Sansa step aside?

Here's another thought...

What if Robb knew Jon's true parentage?

Remember, Robb was sending someone to Greywater Watch to work with the Reeds... mayhaps Howland secretly came to Riverrun to pay homage to Robb. The Stark representative to the Reeds needed a guide anyway, because no one can find Greywater Watch without help, so the representative went with Reed. Howland's presence was not publically announced so that the Reed attack on the Greyjoy rear would be a complete surprise.

Anyway, mayhaps Howland told Robb, "There are certain things that happened during Robert's Rebellion that your father would have wanted you, as a King, to know about... Lyanna was not kidnapped... Robert learned to fight, but not to rule, and you must learn to rule and not just fight... Ned was never unfaithful to your mother... Ashara Dayne's death was faked... the Dayne's Valyrian blade, Dawn, is hidden at the Tower of Joy... Jon is Rhaegar's son."

Would Robb have thought that an heir of mixed Stark and Targaryen blood might be able to rally the North, heck the whole Realm, in the event of his death?

Mayhaps, but the whole naming an heir theory always boils down to the fact that one Robb had a son, he'd have named his son as heir and sent the first heir on his way. And once proclaiming a Stark/Targaryen heir is done... well, that cannot be undone. Someone will always be wanting to put Jon forward as heir to all Seven Kingdoms.

[AryaUnderfoot]

Here's my theory:

Maybe Robb just did exactly what he said he did, and did it "in secret" because to have Catelyn, from whose viewpoint we learned of this development, present for the signing of the documents would be encouraging a serious nagging from her.