28.12: Army of Ghosts

[Brit Chick]

Originally posted by Dave
How did he do it? Has he invented his own machine for sliding between parallel dimensions from a homemade laboratory in his basement by creating a wormhole called an Einstein-Rosen-Podolsky bridge?

Oh man...I miss Sliders - the old Einstein-Rosen-Podolsky bridge!

[PTeppic]

Originally posted by Dr.Jackson
Yeah, the Cybermen nipped through when everyone was out for lunch!
It strikes me that if big, clunky metal men can get through a high security place like Torchwood HQ without being seen or heard (as they make quite a bit of noise!), then Torchwood isn't exactly the threat it made itself out to be.
Ah well, it might get blown to bits in the chaos!

The thing about security is it is typically approached in layers, like an onion. Once you're through the outmost road-block/gate you get to the front door, from there to the elevator, and from there to the office. Then, perhaps, log on to the computer. Several layers, each with some requirement to prove you are who you say you are, and that "you" as a person are allowed to be there (and at that time). Typically with some sort of ID but possibly with a password/PIN and/or biometric.

Such systems are typically not designed to cater for securing against creatures which can appear out of thin air and then stay imobile (without needing food, water or a bathroom break) in a partially disused corridor.

However, I'd have still have expected some PIR and CCTV to have been covering the various corridors...

[obcooke]

[Originally posted by Dave: They didn't explain why the Doctor has not come into contact with them since the time of Queen Victoria. They were waiting for him and expecting him to find them.]

[Originally posted by PTeppic: I thought the throw-away "you're the enemy" was a reasonable attempt at explaining why the Doctor has never encountered Torchwood before.]

I disagree PTeppic, The Doctor was on Earth for a long time in the Seventies, years. If there was an organization dedicated to guarding against him and other aliens, it would surely have popped up considering the number of alien invasions during that time period. I think Dave has a valid concern about that inconsistency.

So far, my explanation from the "Fear Her" discussion is the only valid contender to fix this problem - to summarize:

[Originally posted by OB-Wan: Torchwood wasn't created until that spaceship crashed to Earth, according to PM Jones, 10 years before the Christmas Invasion or about 1996. So it wouldn't have existed in the 1970's. Then after Queen V(ictoria) got a bee in her bonnet ("Tooth & Claw"), Torchwood's history changed. And now, its an old established institution with an old mission statement.

...Maybe the next time red flashing lights go off at the mention of The Doctor, it won't be to invite him to Downing Street.

I don't think that the writers will go that way, but it would be an explanation for some of the anomalies created by recent episodes.]

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[little smaug: So, we finally get to see what Torchwood is all about! It seems a little bit evil...]

Oh, of course not. Didn't you got the memo? Suspected enemies have no rights anymore - lock 'em up, throw away the key, torture them and keep it all secret from the public - that's not evil anymore - that's patriotic.

I was more than a little surprised though that a security organization would not only go along with letting mysterious "ghosts" come and go but would actually be enthusiastic about opening the gate. I mean aren't people chosen for security work because they are naturally suspicious and paranoid? They seemed much more suspicious about The Doctor who they know much more about and who has never menaced the Earth, then the newly-arrived visitors. That didn't ring right with me.

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[Originally posted by PTeppic: At some point after that the lead cybermen came through, when no-one was watching. I guess that the Torchwood staff only work day-shifts and don't use CCTV.]

Remember that the majority of "ghosts" didn't physically pass through the Torchwood building - they just magically appeared here and there. Obviously, some of them were able to covertly stay behind and further their plot in secret.

As to the security breach, well CCTVs are more useful after the fact to determine what happened than they are for preventing actions in real time. In fact, I don't think I have ever heard of a crime being prevented by being spotted on-camera beforehand.

The Cybermen were able to convert people without putting them in iron suits, so perhaps more of Torchwood's people were compromised to help setup the "conversion area".

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[Originally posted by Dave: The only thing that does not square with me is that Mickey must have been working at Torchwood for some time, he had a job with security clearance and was known to Singh.

Haven't you ever heard of identity theft? After all, Mickey wasn't known to Singh as Mickey, he had an assumed identity.

But, on the other hand, maybe Torchwood security does leave something to be desired. Their ability to tell friend from foe certain needs work.

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[Originally posted by PTeppic: However, they followed a strange non-dimensional void ship which reveals a significantly more surprising and dangerous threat at the close of the episode.]

First in keeping with the writers' desire to spoil surprises shouldn't this episode be titled: "The Return of the Cybermen, With a Last Minute Appearance by the Daleks."

I didn't like it. It's too much like when The Master was behind every evil plot. Three appearances (5 episodes) in two years by a species that was supposed to be wiped out? Kinda diminishes the significance of the event if it has no practical effect, doesn't it?

I don't like the idea of all the Time Lords being wiped out and I sure as H--- don't like it when it means almost nothing dramatically. Daleks should be very, very rare. Not - Need a big finale? Let's take out the Daleks and wave them around - everyone will love it! Well, count me out.

I remember Harlen Ellison talking about plot development for the first Star Trek movie. He was laughing and b-tching about the fact that no matter what they came up with it wasn't big enough. The crew of the Enterprise meet GOD! - No, not big enough.

Is that what its become? The Doctor vs. Torchwood and an army of Cybermen! - No, not big enough, has it got any Daleks in it?

I understand the visceral joy of two big bad guys coming together, but it would have had more dramatic effect if they hadn't been the whole finale last year. Think about it - if they only did "Dalek" and then put them in a can and spang them on us now - we'd have been floored! But my honest reaction was: What!? Not again!

Remember, they're supposed to be WIPED OUT!

[PTeppic]

Originally posted by obcooke
As to the security breach, well CCTVs are more useful after the fact to determine what happened than they are for preventing actions in real time. In fact, I don't think I have ever heard of a crime being prevented by being spotted on-camera beforehand.

Do you not watch the CCTV shopping centre type shows? They're always spotting such things before they're committed. For the purposes of prosecution though, they have to let it happen as evidence, rather than simply scaring off the crook. But in principle I agree...

[Twitchr4ng3r]

Originally Posted by Mark Robson

Unfortunately I missed this episode as I was cooking for a dinner party. My six year old's recounting of the storyline did not make a lot of sense, so I hope the recap at the start of the second part will put me in the picture.

maybe you should have taped it, that would have helped.

[Robertbert]

I know it's a few weeks since now, but how about the repeats on BBC3?...Did you catch it in the end?...It'll be out on DVD in the next few weeks anyways... :-) ...