Wraith, Atlantians et al. SPOILERS may be Present - Science Fiction Fantasy Chronicles: forums

ray gower · 23rd August 2005, 10:57 PM

Or:-
Is There Any Sense to This Plot?

Being a relatively newbie with Stargate mythology I am struggling with this and more than a little fed up with waiting for MGM to fill in the gaps (like they didn't with Stargate), so please bare with me:-

The people who built Atlantis are supposed to be the same as the ones who created the Stargates. Cool!
By extraction we can assume there were quite a lot of them (there are lots of gates) and they were an advanced race (they built them QED). Also cool.
Waking up one morning, fed up with being cold in the Antartic, they invented International dialing and beggar off into another galaxy where they once again spread out and are never to be seen again. Okay, I'll accept that.

In this new galaxy we have another advanced race, the Wraith. Who are individually very old and like most old people spend most of their time asleep, waking up from time to time feeling peckish. This race would appear not to be as advanced as the folk in Atlantis (No Stargates?) but more advanced than us (they aren't reliant on Atlantian taxi's).
The Wraith have an unsocial habit of not only gatecrashing dinner parties, but effecting an appreciable change in the menu and dining arrangements. Well it takes all sorts and very old people can be like that (how do you liquidise yorkshire pudding so grandad can drink it through a straw?) But I would have to draw the line at becoming the menu!

So we hit the problems:
If I was Atlantian (or anybody else) with neighbours like the Wraith, I would very quickly start employing the old grey matter to: a/ Think up good excuses not to go to dinner parties the Wraith are going too. b/ Make damned sure they couldn't attend any of my dinner parties!
Something that one would have thought would be within the wit of the smart arse Atlantians?
Instead they allow the Wraith to take control and prune the whole population of planets (10's of millions over 100's thousands of square miles of land?) to about 2 dozen people (The maximum we ever see on the show) who all live within handy reach of the Stargate so the old folks don't have to walk too far for dinner. With the exception of these two dozen people per planet, the rest of the race dies out, (or, perhaps, beggars off again into the starlight, to be the subject of the next Stargate saga).

Spool forward a few thousand years: A bunch of perhaps 60 or 70 people turn up with unlimited ammunition and find the electricity board haven't cut the power off for non-payment of the bills. They also discover, during the first few episodes, that despite mud huts, bows, arrows and sharp pointed sticks, the two dozen 'survivors' on every planet still speak English (even if it has degraded to American

) and have an unlimited supply of polyester, PVC and nylon clothing. We also discover that Wraith dining habits have not improved.

So for anybody who is still awake here are the questions:-
1/ Why didn't the Atlantians, who logically had numbers and technology on their side, deal with the Wraith at the time?
2/ Why can humans, who logically do not have numbers and technology on their side, deal with the Wraith now?
3/ Why didn't the two dozen people on each planet, who usually have no idea how to make the Stargate work, move away?
4/ Who are the Wraith anyhow?

webmouse · 24th August 2005, 02:22 AM

My computer geek husband would say that the answer to your questions is "it depends," which is his answer to all deep, thought-provoking questions.

My sister would respond with "entertainment value" -- just relax, watch the show, try not to think too hard about the massive plot holes.

For me, my answer must fall somewhere between the two. It depends on how much entertainment value I can manage without having to think my way around the plot holes.

Texane · 24th August 2005, 05:12 AM

My answer is the same one I gave to the people who argued, at length, about the length of Sam (Major Carter)'s hair on SG-1: it is just a television show . . . try and relax . . . I know it's tough that Mulder is gone, but take a few deep breaths . . . it will be o.k.

PTeppic · 24th August 2005, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ray gower
So for anybody who is still awake here are the questions:-
1/ Why didn't the Atlantians, who logically had numbers and technology on their side, deal with the Wraith at the time?
2/ Why can humans, who logically do not have numbers and technology on their side, deal with the Wraith now?
3/ Why didn't the two dozen people on each planet, who usually have no idea how to make the Stargate work, move away?
4/ Who are the Wraith anyhow?

1) They didn't have numbers on their side: just because they built the Stargate system doesn't mean they had to outnumber the Wraith. It seems in fact that their population was quite small: they just worked hard (or had good technology to help). Similarly, just because they didn't build Stargates, doresn't mean the Wraith are not advanced, just not as advanced as Atlantis. Later episodes seem to show that the Wraith overcame Atlantis by overwhelming numbers; similar things happened on Earth e.g. southern African states during colonisation. Massive native populations swarming over colonial troops armed with the new belt-fed machine guns; defeated by spears and, more importantly, huge numbers.

2) We most definitely are not defeating the Wraith. We only ever come across one or two at a time, and find them tricky to take down. Emptying a full round from a P90 into one seems to work; they seem to recover from less. I'd estimate they're harder to kill than a Goa'uld.

3) Where would those people go to - they know the Wraith are about; as early as Rising (part 1), Teyla says that every planet is aware of the Wraith. They now seem to cull on every planet in the vicinity; no point moving.

4) Just another non-humanoid race that breeds like insects (numerically) and has a nasty feeding habit.

Texane · 24th August 2005, 07:27 AM

1. considering the manner in which the Wraith feed, perhaps the Atlantians moved because they no longer had numbers on their side - they became food :dead: . . . and what if the Wraith were the Atlantians, or some of them.

ray gower · 24th August 2005, 10:32 PM

I would not disagree with PTeppic regarding most of the excuses, individually. Bolting them together stops them working.

Quote:

Originally posted by PTeppic
3) Where would those people go to - they know the Wraith are about; as early as Rising (part 1), Teyla says that every planet is aware of the Wraith. They now seem to cull on every planet in the vicinity; no point moving.

How about 30,000 miles and the other side of the planet?
None of these planets appear to have satellite surveillance in place, tracking habitation from the air will take hundreds of years.

Quote:

Originally posted by PTeppic
4) Just another non-humanoid race that breeds like insects (numerically) and has a nasty feeding habit.

Which prompts the question what did they eat before the Atlantians turned up and inhabit all the planets?

And here I think Texanne may have the only plausible answer:- The Wraith are the Atlantians. It doesn't take a lot of effort to build a workable hypothesis that will align itself with a number of Stargate themes and inspirations?

Texane · 24th August 2005, 11:01 PM

and wouldn't that be a great season ender: the Wraith are the former Atlantians, except for a few that managed to escape . . . and return home to help us rid the universe of the Wraith.

Status · 24th August 2005, 11:20 PM

I’ll have to agree with some of these assements of how the Wraith came about. However, as far away as these planets are from our local neighborhood, why assume they came from the Atlantians at all?

I like the thought that they may have come about by some technological mishap of the Atlantians. But, perhaps they are a race in their own right and were praying on their local grocery when the Atlantians came alone giving them a new and fresh supermarket to feed on? They had to have been put to sleep for some reason like running low in the cupboard and waiting for the breeding to come about or a new supply to come along.

As far as moving, in Rising it was evident that they were capable of space flight, so where would the food supply move to that they couldn’t get to them?

Just a thought from someone who hasn’t had the benefit of seeing anything but “Atlantis Rising”.

JAD · 25th August 2005, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ray gower
Or:-
Is There Any Sense to This Plot?

Being a relatively newbie with Stargate mythology I am struggling with this and more than a little fed up with waiting for MGM to fill in the gaps (like they didn't with Stargate), so please bare with me:-

The people who built Atlantis are supposed to be the same as the ones who created the Stargates. Cool!
By extraction we can assume there were quite a lot of them (there are lots of gates) and they were an advanced race (they built them QED). Also cool.
Waking up one morning, fed up with being cold in the Antartic, they invented International dialing and beggar off into another galaxy where they once again spread out and are never to be seen again. Okay, I'll accept that.

In this new galaxy we have another advanced race, the Wraith. Who are individually very old and like most old people spend most of their time asleep, waking up from time to time feeling peckish. This race would appear not to be as advanced as the folk in Atlantis (No Stargates?) but more advanced than us (they aren't reliant on Atlantian taxi's).
The Wraith have an unsocial habit of not only gatecrashing dinner parties, but effecting an appreciable change in the menu and dining arrangements. Well it takes all sorts and very old people can be like that (how do you liquidise yorkshire pudding so grandad can drink it through a straw?) But I would have to draw the line at becoming the menu!

So we hit the problems:

If I was Atlantian (or anybody else) with neighbours like the Wraith, I would very quickly start employing the old grey matter to: a/ Think up good excuses not to go to dinner parties the Wraith are going too. b/ Make damned sure they couldn't attend any of my dinner parties!
Something that one would have thought would be within the wit of the smart arse Atlantians?
Instead they allow the Wraith to take control and prune the whole population of planets (10's of millions over 100's thousands of square miles of land?) to about 2 dozen people (The maximum we ever see on the show) who all live within handy reach of the Stargate so the old folks don't have to walk too far for dinner. With the exception of these two dozen people per planet, the rest of the race dies out, (or, perhaps, beggars off again into the starlight, to be the subject of the next Stargate saga).

Spool forward a few thousand years: A bunch of perhaps 60 or 70 people turn up with unlimited ammunition and find the electricity board haven't cut the power off for non-payment of the bills. They also discover, during the first few episodes, that despite mud huts, bows, arrows and sharp pointed sticks, the two dozen 'survivors' on every planet still speak English (even if it has degraded to American) and have an unlimited supply of polyester, PVC and nylon clothing. We also discover that Wraith dining habits have not improved.

So for anybody who is still awake here are the questions:-
1/ Why didn't the Atlantians, who logically had numbers and technology on their side, deal with the Wraith at the time?
2/ Why can humans, who logically do not have numbers and technology on their side, deal with the Wraith now?
3/ Why didn't the two dozen people on each planet, who usually have no idea how to make the Stargate work, move away?
4/ Who are the Wraith anyhow?

POSSIBLE SPOILERS

I'm sorry but I find your thoughts/views/questions very narrow minded and unimaginative!

To truly understand the Atlantis concept you need to really have a real understanding of the "big picture" to the stargate universe.

The Ancients TRIED to defeat the wraith but failed... the show has only been going for what 26 episodes, give the writers and producers a fair go and chance to tell the story, and actually go back and re-watch episodes from sg-1 and Atlantis in order to get a better understanding of the storyline. Im sorry to say it but the Stargate storyline is very intense and large and it won't just make sense overnight, I suggest going to GateWorld and reading their Stargate primer - they reccomend key episodes to prepare you for Atlantis, ... BEFORE making such negative comments about being fed up with waiting for MGM to fill the gaps!
We are still in the early days mate, and the episodes/stories are only getting better!

My advice: give Atlantis a go!

McHorde-Trooper · 25th August 2005, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ray gower
. . .
Which prompts the question what did they eat before the Atlantians turned up and inhabit all the planets?

And here I think Texanne may have the only plausible answer:- The Wraith are the Atlantians. It doesn't take a lot of effort to build a workable hypothesis that will align itself with a number of Stargate themes and inspirations?

You must have missed the episode where they explained the wrath evolved from bugs. When they feed on the ancients the wrath-bugs picked up the DNA from the ancients and some how made them evolve.

Er . . I may not have typed the details exactly right, but that basic theory was stated in one of the episodes.

ray gower · 25th August 2005, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JAD
I'm sorry but I find your thoughts/views/questions very narrow minded and unimaginative!

All thoughts, opinions and debate is welcomed from this corner, provided it is polite. But I do like a little plausibility within the episode to episode repetition and won't simply roll over and say "It is Stargate, so it is wonderful".
So please, debate correct and/or convince me?

Quote:

To truly understand the Atlantis concept you need to really have a real understanding of the "big picture" to the stargate universe.

This being to take our ancient mythology and build a story around it. Not a big fan of SG1 simply because I was never able to watch the early seasons, but from what I have seen, it has not done any dis-service to them.

Quote:

My advice: give Atlantis a go!

Believe me I am (which is why I know we are upto episode 6 series 2!

)

Quote:

McHorde-Trooper
Er . . I may not have typed the details exactly right, but that basic theory was stated in one of the episodes.[b]

I am looking for that episode now.
While I know that TV Sci/Fi has always tries to keep up with fashion- and the fashion at present is all for DNA and genetic engineering (just as in the fifties it was atomic radiation)- It has got to be one of the weakest hypothesis since Mr Roddenberry went and spread human DNA through out the Universe. Unless you have met a six foot midge with more than a racial love of the Glasgow Kiss?
However and before I get told off by JAD again, I would accept that insect DNA may have had an effect?

PTeppic · 25th August 2005, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ray gower
How about 30,000 miles and the other side of the planet?
None of these planets appear to have satellite surveillance in place, tracking habitation from the air will take hundreds of years.

The Wraith have ships. They inevitably have sensors. So no point running.

Where did the Wraith come from: see "38 Minutes" for suggestions of a proto-Wraith bug that seem to feed energy from other living things.

ray gower · 25th August 2005, 09:07 PM

But most of the Wraith raiding parties appear to drop in on a 'snack and shop' basis via the gate. So why make it easy for them?

Texane · 25th August 2005, 10:26 PM

actually, for many it is Stargate and so it is great! not due to failure to ask questions or simple mindedness, but because it is an interesting show that is unlike many others. in my opinion, if you are watching any (or at least more than one) reality show, you probably have insufficient grey matter to understand most good science fiction, including Stargate and Farscape.

you just don't have it in you.

as far as convince me, I don't have to.

there it is. i get to live on this terrific planet without duties to you. so . . .

it is Stargate and so it is great!

in the general vein of JAD's post, live with it, my friend! the rest of us will live with a (fairly) new science fiction show.

I suppose asking you to enjoy any of Rockne O'Bannon's stuff is just out of the question?

ray gower · 25th August 2005, 11:57 PM

As I value both my sanity and grey matter, I can assure you; I have never watched a reality show in my life. Also, having sampled a few, I give anything with 'Celebrity' in the title, soap operas, cooking, gardening and make-over shows and the works of James Joyce a miss for much the same reasons.

As for the works of Rockne O'Bannon, can't rightly say I know who he is or what he has written, so couldn't say. If you mean Seaquest and Farscape, yes, mostly I did, or at least the first 2/3 seasons when I could watch regularly.

And, no, there is no obligation to debate the short comings, high points and promote the understanding of Stargate, here or anywhere else. Or speculate and challenge the theory and story that Stargate tries to offer. Other than a little gentle sparing (and I do try to be gentle) could wake that grey matter up?

23rd August 2005, 10:57 PM	#1 (permalink)
ray gower Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Gwynedd Posts: 3,592	Wraith, Atlantians et al. Or:- Is There Any Sense to This Plot? Being a relatively newbie with Stargate mythology I am struggling with this and more than a little fed up with waiting for MGM to fill in the gaps (like they didn't with Stargate), so please bare with me:- The people who built Atlantis are supposed to be the same as the ones who created the Stargates. Cool! By extraction we can assume there were quite a lot of them (there are lots of gates) and they were an advanced race (they built them QED). Also cool. Waking up one morning, fed up with being cold in the Antartic, they invented International dialing and beggar off into another galaxy where they once again spread out and are never to be seen again. Okay, I'll accept that. In this new galaxy we have another advanced race, the Wraith. Who are individually very old and like most old people spend most of their time asleep, waking up from time to time feeling peckish. This race would appear not to be as advanced as the folk in Atlantis (No Stargates?) but more advanced than us (they aren't reliant on Atlantian taxi's). The Wraith have an unsocial habit of not only gatecrashing dinner parties, but effecting an appreciable change in the menu and dining arrangements. Well it takes all sorts and very old people can be like that (how do you liquidise yorkshire pudding so grandad can drink it through a straw?) But I would have to draw the line at becoming the menu! So we hit the problems: If I was Atlantian (or anybody else) with neighbours like the Wraith, I would very quickly start employing the old grey matter to: a/ Think up good excuses not to go to dinner parties the Wraith are going too. b/ Make damned sure they couldn't attend any of my dinner parties! Something that one would have thought would be within the wit of the smart arse Atlantians? Instead they allow the Wraith to take control and prune the whole population of planets (10's of millions over 100's thousands of square miles of land?) to about 2 dozen people (The maximum we ever see on the show) who all live within handy reach of the Stargate so the old folks don't have to walk too far for dinner. With the exception of these two dozen people per planet, the rest of the race dies out, (or, perhaps, beggars off again into the starlight, to be the subject of the next Stargate saga). Spool forward a few thousand years: A bunch of perhaps 60 or 70 people turn up with unlimited ammunition and find the electricity board haven't cut the power off for non-payment of the bills. They also discover, during the first few episodes, that despite mud huts, bows, arrows and sharp pointed sticks, the two dozen 'survivors' on every planet still speak English (even if it has degraded to American) and have an unlimited supply of polyester, PVC and nylon clothing. We also discover that Wraith dining habits have not improved. So for anybody who is still awake here are the questions:- 1/ Why didn't the Atlantians, who logically had numbers and technology on their side, deal with the Wraith at the time? 2/ Why can humans, who logically do not have numbers and technology on their side, deal with the Wraith now? 3/ Why didn't the two dozen people on each planet, who usually have no idea how to make the Stargate work, move away? 4/ Who are the Wraith anyhow?

24th August 2005, 02:22 AM	#2 (permalink)
webmouse Fearless Mouse Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Silver Spring, Maryland Posts: 1,159	My computer geek husband would say that the answer to your questions is "it depends," which is his answer to all deep, thought-provoking questions. My sister would respond with "entertainment value" -- just relax, watch the show, try not to think too hard about the massive plot holes. For me, my answer must fall somewhere between the two. It depends on how much entertainment value I can manage without having to think my way around the plot holes.

24th August 2005, 05:12 AM	#3 (permalink)
Texane Frelling Wicked Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Texas (of course!) Posts: 3,877	My answer is the same one I gave to the people who argued, at length, about the length of Sam (Major Carter)'s hair on SG-1: it is just a television show . . . try and relax . . . I know it's tough that Mulder is gone, but take a few deep breaths . . . it will be o.k.

24th August 2005, 07:27 AM	#5 (permalink)
Texane Frelling Wicked Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Texas (of course!) Posts: 3,877	1. considering the manner in which the Wraith feed, perhaps the Atlantians moved because they no longer had numbers on their side - they became food :dead: . . . and what if the Wraith were the Atlantians, or some of them.

24th August 2005, 11:01 PM	#7 (permalink)
Texane Frelling Wicked Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Texas (of course!) Posts: 3,877	and wouldn't that be a great season ender: the Wraith are the former Atlantians, except for a few that managed to escape . . . and return home to help us rid the universe of the Wraith.

24th August 2005, 11:20 PM	#8 (permalink)
Status Master Confusser Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,383	I’ll have to agree with some of these assements of how the Wraith came about. However, as far away as these planets are from our local neighborhood, why assume they came from the Atlantians at all? I like the thought that they may have come about by some technological mishap of the Atlantians. But, perhaps they are a race in their own right and were praying on their local grocery when the Atlantians came alone giving them a new and fresh supermarket to feed on? They had to have been put to sleep for some reason like running low in the cupboard and waiting for the breeding to come about or a new supply to come along. As far as moving, in Rising it was evident that they were capable of space flight, so where would the food supply move to that they couldn’t get to them? Just a thought from someone who hasn’t had the benefit of seeing anything but “Atlantis Rising”.

25th August 2005, 09:07 PM	#13 (permalink)
ray gower Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Gwynedd Posts: 3,592	But most of the Wraith raiding parties appear to drop in on a 'snack and shop' basis via the gate. So why make it easy for them?

25th August 2005, 10:26 PM	#14 (permalink)
Texane Frelling Wicked Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Texas (of course!) Posts: 3,877	actually, for many it is Stargate and so it is great! not due to failure to ask questions or simple mindedness, but because it is an interesting show that is unlike many others. in my opinion, if you are watching any (or at least more than one) reality show, you probably have insufficient grey matter to understand most good science fiction, including Stargate and Farscape. you just don't have it in you. as far as convince me, I don't have to. there it is. i get to live on this terrific planet without duties to you. so . . . it is Stargate and so it is great! in the general vein of JAD's post, live with it, my friend! the rest of us will live with a (fairly) new science fiction show. I suppose asking you to enjoy any of Rockne O'Bannon's stuff is just out of the question?

25th August 2005, 11:57 PM	#15 (permalink)
ray gower Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Gwynedd Posts: 3,592	As I value both my sanity and grey matter, I can assure you; I have never watched a reality show in my life. Also, having sampled a few, I give anything with 'Celebrity' in the title, soap operas, cooking, gardening and make-over shows and the works of James Joyce a miss for much the same reasons. As for the works of Rockne O'Bannon, can't rightly say I know who he is or what he has written, so couldn't say. If you mean Seaquest and Farscape, yes, mostly I did, or at least the first 2/3 seasons when I could watch regularly. And, no, there is no obligation to debate the short comings, high points and promote the understanding of Stargate, here or anywhere else. Or speculate and challenge the theory and story that Stargate tries to offer. Other than a little gentle sparing (and I do try to be gentle) could wake that grey matter up?