Buffy cont...

[Vampyre]

Well there is only really one ending to BTVS and Angel, and that is the 2 true loves getting back together and staying together (Yes that's right Buffy and Angel). I am certain that one day SMG will come to her senses and return to make a final series, instead of playing with Scooby-Doo...(I'm not impressed). But that leaves the question of how and when will they bring it back? I hope this post revives some conversation in this forum...because it looks to be dying .

[Maria8475]

I'm not sure they'll do another Buffy series (of course I would love it if they did ).

But maybe we'll have a movie and that could tie up some loose ends.

I'm not sure about Buffy and Angel getting back together though. I know that they were soul mates, crazy about each other, madly in love etc. But that was years ago and so much has happened to them both since, especially Buffy. I think they're both different people now and as much as they still care for each other - i don't think it's love.

[Vampyre]

Hmmm, we've already seen what happens if circumstances change in 'I Will Remember You', I have no doubt that they still love each other.

Also from Season 5 BTVS, Ep 'Forever':

Buffy: (apologetically) That's a bad idea. I'm seriously needy right now.
Angel: Let me worry about the neediness. I can handle it.

They look at each other, then Buffy leans in and kisses him. They kiss softly for a moment. Then it gets a little more heated and they pull away, both breathing harder.

Buffy: (looks down) I told you. (Angel sighs) You better go.
Angel: (another sigh) I'm sorry.
Buffy: (firmly) No. I'm so grateful that you came, Angel. I didn't think I was gonna be able to make it through the night.
Angel: (looks up at the sky) Well, we still have a few more minutes until I have to go.
Buffy: Good.

She puts her head on his chest and leans against him. He puts his arm around her shoulders.
Buffy: Good.

And don't forget when Angel goes to Italy with Spike, Joss hasn't put all these hints in for no reason...they are still very much in love, just waiting for fate to allow it.

[Vampyre]

BTW, anyone know where Obcooke is? He would've enjoyed this discussion...

[Maria8475]

'I will Remember You' was quite early in the first series, so i can believe they were *really* still in love at that time.

The time in Italy and the other references of Buffy/Spike, i think makes Angel seem more like a jealous kid then anything else. He did that with Riley too. In my books love isn't possessive or petty and that was actually what made me think he's sorta over her. Plus he's been with other women too.

'Forever' - obviously was a good moment for anyone who's a Buffy/Angel shipper (and yes i still include myself in that category) but i don't think it was real. Buffy had just suffered a HUGE loss, as she said herself, she was needy. Angel, well i suppose he's still a guy

Plus of late Buffy thinks Angel's head of an evil law firm (oh wait... ) and on a couple of occasions, at least, refused to help him out. And what about all that tension they had over Faith in 'Sanctuary'?

P.S. Sorry no idea where OB is.

[obcooke]

Hey, Hey, here now. I've been at DRAGONCON '04. I haven't had time to get on-line since the weekend started.

You people talk like I have a life outside of the Buffy=Angel=Firefly triangle. How silly.

BTW to find out what I've been doing go to Firefly General Discussions, sadly, the only forum for which there is new news, and you'll find my report. BTW where do I submit my expense vouchers?

[obcooke]

Okay, let's see... what's the topic? Buffy & Angel? Again?

No, just kidding. Actually, its not surprising that among many thousands of science fictions fans at a convention with specialized programming for Buffy/Angel I should manage this very day, wait... it's 4am, that very yesterday, to get into an argument about this very subject.

Okay, as a moderator, it's hard sometimes to interpret the rules, but the Buffy=Angel shows are just too intertwined at this late date to create artificial separations. SO if you haven't seen all of Buffy and all of Angel and don't want to be spoiled, STAY OUT, please.

I voiced my dismay and, yes, outrage, that the Shan-sho Prophecy had been so casually dismissed in the Angel finale.

"No problem", she replied.

"No problem?", I sputtered. "How is there no problem?"

"It belongs to Spike now. That's the way the story will go from here."

I was surprised to hear myself respond almost angrily, but calmly, "It's not his!"

"Sure it is."

"It's not his. It doesn't belong to Spike. It never has and it never will."

It was like finding something in the back of the refrigerator that you didn't know was there. I guess I had just never had to boil it down to my gut feeling before. And I must say that I feel the same way about Buffy.

If I have to explain it, here goes - Angel is the first love. He's the lost love. Spike is the bad boy. Spike is the temptation to stray from the path. Angel will be the lost love restored, again. And by the time that happens he will be the man that she deserves, because he has some baking to do himself still.

The metaphor is two success-motivated individuals who strike out in different directions and end up together.

Why have I come to this opinion? Heaven only knows. But I'm a little tired right now (I'm DRAGONCON drowsy), give me some time and I'll give it some thought.

[Vampyre]

I just don't have the heart for these 2 shows I once did, I feel like I've been let down with half-assed endings to shows that hadn't finished their stories.

BUT, as for the notion that Buffy and Angel are not still in love...ARE YOU BLIND?!

It just seems so blatantly obvious to me, they will always be in love, circumstances keep them apart , nothing more. For certain, in my mind, we can know that Buffy is Angel's only true love because she's the only girl that can give him a true moment of happiness. Darla proved that in the season 2 episode 'Reprise'.

[little smaug]

Yeah, but it wasn't just that Angel wasn't in love with Darla - he hated her, and hated himself for wanting her. He didn't experience perfect happiness because he was experiencing perfect despair.

I don't know whether Buffy and Angel are still in love. It seems to me more like they're obsessed with each other, and they just can't bear the thought of the other person being with someone else. I mean, should true love really be so crazy and volatile? To quote Spike - "You'll fight, and you'll shag, and you'll hate each other till it makes you quiver". They are always at the two ends of the love/hate line, with nothing in the middle. They're fine at the fighting and the making up, but that's it. A relationship between them would never work, because they can't be friends as well as lovers.

[Maria8475]

Originally posted by little smaug

I don't know whether Buffy and Angel are still in love. It seems to me more like they're obsessed with each other.

Thank you that was the point i was trying to make too

But i agree with the Shan-sho Prophecy thing. There is no way Spike deserves that. Angel's saved the world too and been at it longer! Plus he's Angel. (yes i am in an incredibly logical mood). And i don't doubt for a second that fulfilling the prophecy will be Angel's excuse to run back to Buffy but i don't think it would be a good idea.

[Vampyre]

Can't believe what I'm seeing here, where have all the old skool Buffy/Angel fans gone (Markpud? Asmiley? Where are you!).

'I mean, should true love really be so crazy and volatile?'

Why not? You're telling me there are rules to love?

A relationship between them would never work, because they can't be friends as well as lovers.

What they had was a relationship that worked, the only thing that stopped that was the curse(the circumstance I talked about), take that away and why not. As for them not being friends, they ARE friends, if Buffy ever truly need help Angel would be there, and vica versa. Yes I know you're going to point out some instances where Buffy didn't help Angel, but is that because she didn't want to? Or because Joss could'nt think of a way to do without SMG?

Conclusion: True love will always be between them, and fate will bring them together in the end, how and when is the discussion.


As for Spike having the prophecy...huh? Who said that Obe?

[little smaug]

Well I can't comment on the prophecy stuff, cos I haven't seen season 5 of Angel yet.

But when I said that Buffy and Angel can't be friends, I didn't mean that they don't like each other and want to help each other (I'm having trouble putting my thoughts into words, so bear with me). I mean that their relationship was only ever based on passion - hence, fighting or shagging. Look at "I Will Remember You" - Angel gets made human, and what do they do? Fight, shag, fight again, cry. Even if Angel was human, can you see the two of them just hanging out like normal people? Shopping, going out to dinner, staying home watching tv? We all saw how well going to the cinema worked out for them.

[Vampyre]

That was a wrong movie choice is all lol. 'I Will Remember You' was a pretty extreme change for both of them, they had a lot of pent up emotions that needed releasing. Also after they had finished 'shagging', the scene where they were in bed together eating Cookie-dough-fudge-mint-chip is perfect. I think you're just ignoring what you want to .

[Maria8475]

i agree the cookie-dough scene is cute. But i don't see them getting along that well all the time - and it's not because i don't want to. I've said this before but personally i'm a huge Buffy/Angel fan and nothing would please the hopeless romantic part of me more than if they got back together but i just don't think it would be a good idea or a great plot line on Joss's part - why go back to something that's already been done to death.

[little smaug]

Ok, I'll admit that the ice-cream scene was cute. But I agree with Maria - they can't be together all the time without it blowing up, and getting all angsty and grrr.

Though I guess I am kinda biased in this - I never particularly liked them as a couple, so I'm not eager for them to get back together. Now I think about it, I haven't really liked any of Buffy's boyfriends. I like them as characters (except Riley, he was just blah:disgust, but I haven't liked any of the couplings. Wonder why that is?