Season 3 should have ended on a dark note (Season 3 spoilers) - Science Fiction Fantasy Chronicles: forums

McHorde-Trooper · 6th August 2004, 07:42 AM

In one of the season 2 episodes Archer saved a sample of a virus
that changed people into a different species.

This would have been the ultimate bio-weapon against the
bad guy's.

It would have been so cool if Archer choose to use the virus
as a bio-weapon. (i.e. instead of having him get this knowledge
of the future) He could have succeed that way and it would
leave this black mark on him and the Federation. Archer would
have had to live knowing he betrayed the hairy Xindi that
became his ally.

The Federation is too goody-two-shoes. The show didn't live
up to those stop the Xindi at any cost comments made by various
characters.

While winning with a bio-weapon wouldn't be a total surprise
it would have been shocking.

They could have at least used the bio-weapon on the people that
piloted the giant-death-ray-o'-doom.

The bio-weapon was the biggest missed opportunity.
They should have at the very least showed Archer asking the
Dr. how to weaponize or if it would work on the Xindi.

At the end of the episode with the virus in it . . when Archer
tells Phlox to keep it . . you get that feeling he's thinking about
using it as a weapon . . and would it have been so bad . . it wouldn't
really kill anyone, but it would be the death of what
made the individuals who they were . .

So what do you all think?

ray gower · 6th August 2004, 10:27 AM

The episode you are thinking of, where they discover the virus, is Extinction.

Should they have used the virus to destroy the Xindi?
NO, NO, NO!
For a lot of good reasons:-
Biological and chemical weapons are slow, fickle and nasty things.
They are as likely to turn on their creators as anybody they use them on.
They are unlikely to have a significant (or any) effect in the short term and almost certainly won't hit the people you need to kill.
I have seen the long term effects of mustard gas on my grandfather. It was not a pretty sight watching him bubble and it all but destroyed his life for 50 years after the war. A viral weapon would be no cleaner, just extends the suffering.
For these reasons every civilised country in the world (except America) have signed an agreement not to develop or stockpile any of these weapons. I don't think even the US would dare to use them!

Besides the virus may well not have worked on the reptiles!

So while Archer may have thought of using the virus as a weapon of last resort, in some dark reflective moment; I don't think he would have really found it in him at the end. It just would not be cricket.

As for darker- I think returning to the beloved Nazi's for season 4 is about as dark (in terms of poor story) ST creative writing can get!

McHorde-Trooper · 7th August 2004, 12:30 AM

You make some very good points ray gower.
I guess using the virus in the story would have risked alienating
the audience.

I just wish they would at least have shown Archer think about it
again near the end.

I don't remember how long it took for the virus to take effect
during Extinction, but it seemed to only take hours or at most
a few days.

Now maybe it wouldn't act fast enough to stop the reptiles
(assuming it worked on them) but if it were used earlier in the
story before the weapon was launched it might have worked.

Unlike historical weapons the science fiction virus changed there
genetic structure and gave them some kind of instinct or information
to return to the planet. Since the virus was intended
to re-create a lost civilization I question how significant the long
term effects would be in terms of pain and suffering.

The Nazi's . . I agree with you poor story telling . . it's been done
so many times already . . it's no longer original no matter what
twist they put on it.

I'm still trying to figure out why, if Enterprise had weak ratings,
they would switch to a saga like story arch.

In my mind it makes it harder for viewers to get into the show
if they missed episodes. Well . . I guess how the story gets
told is an important part of how easy it is to enjoy the show
and even if episodes were missed.

ray gower · 7th August 2004, 01:45 AM

Think the virus would have to be a carefully pre-meditated thing. It is just not something you could spray about and watch them all running home.
It would have to be re-designed to make them run to the right home.
The point of course is that Archer and T'Pot only became infected when they were on the planet. So the conditions must be right for the virus.

Overall, I think the virus was designed more to recreate or rejuvinate the race rather than destroy it, which is a rather different concept.

As for Season 4. One way or other we have gone into it in some detail elsewhere. I used to be a great proponent for making ST into a real and darker serial.
Now I'm far from sure that it should be.

McHorde-Trooper · 10th August 2004, 05:47 PM

The conditions for the virus to work . . that's another good point I hadn't thought of.

I guess the reason I was hoping for it to be a bit darker is because Enterprise is supposed to be early on before many
rules about exploration are formed. That and I think the whole
time travel thing is getting abused.

I liked the Temporal war idea. It gave a good excuse / explanation for Enterprise not to be a slave to previous continuity. And some of the stories it brought about were
pretty fun.

I liked the generational Enterprise, with the two Enterprises.

But the whole thing about space being converted by beings
from the future (or not bound by time?) . . and Enterprise's resident time traveler dude giving Archer that pin to convince
some of the Xindi with . . uhg . . it leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Any way . . I'll have to go look at the season 4 threads.

Dave · 11th August 2004, 01:20 AM

I'm not the only person who hates the ending to Season 3. I would just remove the final 5 minutes if possible, but I can't.

There was speculation that several different endings were filmed, some of them to be used should Enterprise not have been renewed for a fourth Season, but Rick Berman, Brannon Braga and Scott Bakula have all denied this. It was always going to be the Nazi ending.

The Virus idea -- I agree with Ray that Archer and the Federation would never use it, though I agree that it must have crossed Archer's mind, otherwise why keep it. As for it being only of use on that particular planet -- Dr. Phlox is a brilliant guy, I'm sure that he could have reverse-engineered something more useful from it.

I would have rather had some movement towards the Romulan Wars. I don't like the idea of seeing Romulans or Birds of Prey, but there would be nothing preventing us seeing Remans. A fan asked Rick Berman about this in a 'Star Trek Magazine' issue last year, and he answered that he had never thought of it. It seems unlikely that he never thought of it to me, I'm sure that is what we will see happen at some point.

So I would have liked to have seen the Expanse disappear and the Enterprise to have been left sat surrounded by a fleet of Reman craft.

6th August 2004, 07:42 AM	#1 (permalink)
McHorde-Trooper Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: McEarth Posts: 248	Season 3 should have ended on a dark note (Season 3 spoilers) In one of the season 2 episodes Archer saved a sample of a virus that changed people into a different species. This would have been the ultimate bio-weapon against the bad guy's. It would have been so cool if Archer choose to use the virus as a bio-weapon. (i.e. instead of having him get this knowledge of the future) He could have succeed that way and it would leave this black mark on him and the Federation. Archer would have had to live knowing he betrayed the hairy Xindi that became his ally. The Federation is too goody-two-shoes. The show didn't live up to those stop the Xindi at any cost comments made by various characters. While winning with a bio-weapon wouldn't be a total surprise it would have been shocking. They could have at least used the bio-weapon on the people that piloted the giant-death-ray-o'-doom. The bio-weapon was the biggest missed opportunity. They should have at the very least showed Archer asking the Dr. how to weaponize or if it would work on the Xindi. At the end of the episode with the virus in it . . when Archer tells Phlox to keep it . . you get that feeling he's thinking about using it as a weapon . . and would it have been so bad . . it wouldn't really kill anyone, but it would be the death of what made the individuals who they were . . So what do you all think?

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6th August 2004, 10:27 AM	#2 (permalink)
ray gower Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Gwynedd Posts: 3,591	The episode you are thinking of, where they discover the virus, is Extinction. Should they have used the virus to destroy the Xindi? NO, NO, NO! For a lot of good reasons:- Biological and chemical weapons are slow, fickle and nasty things. They are as likely to turn on their creators as anybody they use them on. They are unlikely to have a significant (or any) effect in the short term and almost certainly won't hit the people you need to kill. I have seen the long term effects of mustard gas on my grandfather. It was not a pretty sight watching him bubble and it all but destroyed his life for 50 years after the war. A viral weapon would be no cleaner, just extends the suffering. For these reasons every civilised country in the world (except America) have signed an agreement not to develop or stockpile any of these weapons. I don't think even the US would dare to use them! Besides the virus may well not have worked on the reptiles! So while Archer may have thought of using the virus as a weapon of last resort, in some dark reflective moment; I don't think he would have really found it in him at the end. It just would not be cricket. As for darker- I think returning to the beloved Nazi's for season 4 is about as dark (in terms of poor story) ST creative writing can get!

7th August 2004, 12:30 AM	#3 (permalink)
McHorde-Trooper Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: McEarth Posts: 248	You make some very good points ray gower. I guess using the virus in the story would have risked alienating the audience. I just wish they would at least have shown Archer think about it again near the end. I don't remember how long it took for the virus to take effect during Extinction, but it seemed to only take hours or at most a few days. Now maybe it wouldn't act fast enough to stop the reptiles (assuming it worked on them) but if it were used earlier in the story before the weapon was launched it might have worked. Unlike historical weapons the science fiction virus changed there genetic structure and gave them some kind of instinct or information to return to the planet. Since the virus was intended to re-create a lost civilization I question how significant the long term effects would be in terms of pain and suffering. The Nazi's . . I agree with you poor story telling . . it's been done so many times already . . it's no longer original no matter what twist they put on it. I'm still trying to figure out why, if Enterprise had weak ratings, they would switch to a saga like story arch. In my mind it makes it harder for viewers to get into the show if they missed episodes. Well . . I guess how the story gets told is an important part of how easy it is to enjoy the show and even if episodes were missed.

7th August 2004, 01:45 AM	#4 (permalink)
ray gower Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Gwynedd Posts: 3,591	Think the virus would have to be a carefully pre-meditated thing. It is just not something you could spray about and watch them all running home. It would have to be re-designed to make them run to the right home. The point of course is that Archer and T'Pot only became infected when they were on the planet. So the conditions must be right for the virus. Overall, I think the virus was designed more to recreate or rejuvinate the race rather than destroy it, which is a rather different concept. As for Season 4. One way or other we have gone into it in some detail elsewhere. I used to be a great proponent for making ST into a real and darker serial. Now I'm far from sure that it should be.

10th August 2004, 05:47 PM	#5 (permalink)
McHorde-Trooper Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: McEarth Posts: 248	The conditions for the virus to work . . that's another good point I hadn't thought of. I guess the reason I was hoping for it to be a bit darker is because Enterprise is supposed to be early on before many rules about exploration are formed. That and I think the whole time travel thing is getting abused. I liked the Temporal war idea. It gave a good excuse / explanation for Enterprise not to be a slave to previous continuity. And some of the stories it brought about were pretty fun. I liked the generational Enterprise, with the two Enterprises. But the whole thing about space being converted by beings from the future (or not bound by time?) . . and Enterprise's resident time traveler dude giving Archer that pin to convince some of the Xindi with . . uhg . . it leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Any way . . I'll have to go look at the season 4 threads.

11th August 2004, 01:20 AM	#6 (permalink)
Dave Wherever I Am, I'm There Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Greater London Posts: 11,443	I'm not the only person who hates the ending to Season 3. I would just remove the final 5 minutes if possible, but I can't. There was speculation that several different endings were filmed, some of them to be used should Enterprise not have been renewed for a fourth Season, but Rick Berman, Brannon Braga and Scott Bakula have all denied this. It was always going to be the Nazi ending. The Virus idea -- I agree with Ray that Archer and the Federation would never use it, though I agree that it must have crossed Archer's mind, otherwise why keep it. As for it being only of use on that particular planet -- Dr. Phlox is a brilliant guy, I'm sure that he could have reverse-engineered something more useful from it. I would have rather had some movement towards the Romulan Wars. I don't like the idea of seeing Romulans or Birds of Prey, but there would be nothing preventing us seeing Remans. A fan asked Rick Berman about this in a 'Star Trek Magazine' issue last year, and he answered that he had never thought of it. It seems unlikely that he never thought of it to me, I'm sure that is what we will see happen at some point. So I would have liked to have seen the Expanse disappear and the Enterprise to have been left sat surrounded by a fleet of Reman craft.