The Genetic Photocopier.

[Princess Ivy]

Originally Posted by polymorphikos

If a human being were grown from the embryonic state, then why would they not posses a soul? Gestated from a human egg, fertilised with human DNA, they would be in all ways human except that they were grown in an artificial womb, though in probability they would be gestated inside a woman for ease. Therefore, a clone is exactly like a "regular" person, soul inclusive, save that somebody had a say in how they looked.

Morally, if there are no bad after-effects then we have not hurt anyone. As for playing God, destroy everything you own save for your body, and you will be exactly as God intended you.

In all honesty, Tough Noogy. You asked for a gut reaction and you got it. Logic can therefore not sway me from my gut reactions! and BTW, if it was fertilised in a normal way it would not be a clone, it is the whole aspect of mankind playing god to re-create itself in its own immage that leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

[polymorphikos]

But if God does not exist, are we not solely responsible to ourselves? It is tales like Frankenstein and Jurassic Park that erk me, showing lines man is not meant to cross. There are no lines, just the responsibility of human beings to make-sure that they don't hurt anyone playing-around with their inventions and discoveries. Provided that the Golden Rule : "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", is adhered to, it matters not. Just so long as nobody gets hurt, and we tread with caution and do not destroy ourselves. That is the aspect of tales like Frankenstein and Jurassic Park, that "Tread with care" aspect, that I do think is important and pertinent.

EDIT: And cloning is the fertilisation of a human ovum using the genetic material of a chosen donor. The cell from a cheek, for example, can have its nucleus implanted in an ovum and fertilise it in the same way that sperm do, because the genetic information contained within the nucleus is past on.

[Princess Ivy]

Originally Posted by polymorphikos

But if God does not exist, are we not solely responsible to ourselves? It is tales like Frankenstein and Jurassic Park that erk me, showing lines man is not meant to cross. There are no lines, just the responsibility of human beings to make-sure that they don't hurt anyone playing-around with their inventions and discoveries. Provided that the Golden Rule : "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", is adhered to, it matters not. Just so long as nobody gets hurt, and we tread with caution and do not destroy ourselves. That is the aspect of tales like Frankenstein and Jurassic Park, that "Tread with care" aspect, that I do think is important and pertinent.

Firstly, who says God does not exist? I don't.
But yes we are responsible for our own actions. However, who says that humans as a race are responsible? What about the A-bomb? and continuing to test it, even although we know the consequenses? Not exactly sane or rational.
Yes, I think that we should 'do unto others' and 'tread with care'. Unfortunalty most of the human race thinks more along the lines of 'look out for number one' and are the fools that rush in where angels fear to tread!
As a race we are selfish, arrogant and violent. Yes, there are individuals who do not think like that, however they are in the minority. Even if they weren't there'd always be some twit in a lab ready to do what they felt was nessessary. If this wasn't the case, we would live in a Utopian community. Not the times of chaos that infect this world.

[polymorphikos]

I like humanity. The average person is just the result of enviroment. Jerks teaching their kids to be jerks. That's why I'm going to teach.

I meant "must take responsibility". A lot of countries actually are. Kyoto, nuclear disarmament, apologising to Aborigines, aid programmes, biological weapons bans, social reform, gay rights emerging, universal suffrage, public wealthfare, etcetera etcetera. Humanity rocks. We have many problems, but, through a process of internal analysis, we are becoming better and better. Atleast with the big things. Humanity was dumb because only those in power had information, and those in power had been taught by their predecessors that "might is right" and to look out for number one. With time, it'll work-out.

I actually think we are entering a really exciting time. Issues are reaching breaking point. They are growing so big that people will actually have to face them, or else be destroyed by their refusal to do so. It ma turn into a hideous baptism of fire, but maybe not. I always stand by the fact that as individuals people are okay, but in groups everything goes to hell because lots of little revenge fantasies, concerns, misgivings, etcetera are magnified by numbers. As I said, though, this works in a good way too, but soon humanity is either going to collapse under its own weight or become better for its failings.

Call me Mr Optimism.

[Princess Ivy]

Hello Mr Optimism.
I'm Ms Realist.
I hope you are right, but I just don't see the human race changing. Laws may change, just as the race laws changes, world wide. However racism is still rampant, and although civil rights may be entrenched in law, they are far from practiced by all. Same with anti sexual descrimination laws. I still have to fight to earn as much as a man in my chosen profession. In my current employment thats not an issue, we all get the bare min (I'm getting a raise!"!!!!), but the career that I have trained for, it is a different issue entirely.
But I do agree that education is the key, so good luck.

[littlemissattitude]

I'd like to amplify a bit on my earlier post, where I said that, under the conditions that polymorphikos sat down, I didn't think cloning a human being could be called wrong.

I stand by that. But I also believe that just because something isn't "wrong", it doesn't mean that it should necessarily be done. My favorite example of this is a strange one, but I'll use it anyway. JFK, Jr. was killed piloting his own plane. It was not "wrong" of him to buy a plane and take flying lessons, then use that plane to transport himself, his wife, and his sister-in-law from place to place in it. He had a pilot's license. He apparently did not break any laws by flying. But, as circumstances turned out, it looks like it wasn't that good an idea for him to do that, at least on that day. The moral of the story is that just because someone (or a society) can do something, and it isn't necessarily wrong in a moral sense to do it, that does not mean that the thing necessarily should be done.

Especially if there is no logical reason to do it. As I said in my first post in this thread, we've already got quite enough people on the planet, most of whom got here in the ordinary way. Why do we need to make xerox copies of people, and add to the already awfully large population? I'm still not even completely convinced that things like in-vitro fertilization is that great an idea - there are a lot of babies out there who need a good home, if someone would just adopt them. But that's another topic for another thread.

[polymorphikos]

I know it's pointless. That wasn't really the point. Like I said, though, as long as no-one gets hurt, it doesn't seem to bad an idea. Cloning is really only a stepping-stone to more complex forms of genetic engineering anyway. It's not so much an ends as a means.