Oh my GOD!!!! (only come here if seen film. Spoilers)

[Jessa]

That was absolutely brilliant! i saw it as soon as it was out at my cinema, and i have to say, it it amazing. I can't believe the plot!

[timdgreat]

ok after a day in the theater and seeing the movie twice, here are my thoughts



First i loved the first two movies made by the Wachowski brothers, but i really cant say that i liked or even disliked this movie.

Heres why,
I loved many scenes in this movie, specially the visual effects surronding the fight in the dock with the squids, and the big mobile guns the machines had guarding their city, and of course the machine city itself, but there are some things i just couldnt stand,

i dont konw how it could have eneded diffrently, but i didnt like the way the movie ended, there are still [b]SO[b] many questions that i still want to be awnsered, like, what happened to neo? now that there is apperently no war going on any more what will happen? will the humans stay in Zion and live out there lives there? will they move back to the surface and work with machines? what will become of the Matrix? will it be destroyed or will some people stay in it? what happened to the Merovingian, is he dead or was he a smith?

i was happy that we finally confirmed the question of who the mother of the matrix is, the oracle

well thats it for me, i await every one elses replys:rolly2:

[Spudnik]

apparently, neo is no longer

neither is smith.

if either were alive, the matrix would unbalance and destroy itself. just as the oracle said it would.

as for peace, well its not something the architect is used to. maybe it wont last, maybe it will.

due to the final scenes, it seems the matrix still exists, but will have to be changed now that peace has come about.

do you realize that all of the characters in the final scene are programs?

[pkgrl]

Originally posted by timdgreat
there are still SO many questions that i still want to be awnsered, like, what happened to neo?

Neo died. Didn't the crucifiction position clue you in? He was the "savior" and he, as andernout predicted, sacrificed himself for humanity, like Jesus apparently did when he was crucified, so Neo's final position of "rest" is in the same pose. It finishes the Jesus/Christ/Savior = Neo symbolism that the W Bros threaded throughout the trilogy.

now that there is apperently no war going on any more what will happen? will the humans stay in Zion and live out there lives there? will they move back to the surface and work with machines?

I think that the Zionites will stay in Zion and rebuild. All Neo bought them was peace, not cooperation or trust. I think the machines will leave them alone and will allow them to free humans who are becoming aware of the matrix without interferance. I also think the Oracle will be instrumental in getting the peace message to the Zionites and will make sure that they understand that in order to keep the peace, they won't be able to agressively search the matrix for these "wakeners," but will also be able to find them more easily, since the new balance attained will be something the machines want to maintain. If they try to fight the "free" humans, they'll just re-start the war. And machines don't lie... remember the Architect's last words? "What do you think I am? Human?" The implication is that he doesn't need to "give his word," because every word out of his mouth is "his word;" ie, because he's a program, a perfectly logical entity, he's incapable of lying.

what will become of the Matrix? will it be destroyed or will some people stay in it?

Most people will stay inside the matrix. It's home. It's comfortable and safe and we humans like things to be easy more often than not. In Reloaded, the Architect gave the number as "nearly 99% of all humans accepted the program as long as they" had a choice, even if the choice was nearly unconscious. You saw the "fields" of fetuses. There are still billions of humans on Earth, and almost all of them were or will be plugged into the matrix. Barely more than 1% of them will be dissatisfied enough to be "freed" to live in Zion. There has to be cooperation (as the Oracle said in Reloaded) in order for humans AND machines to survive on Earth. As long as the people believe that they are living their own happy little lives, and believe that they're free, who are we (or the Zionites) to argue?

what happened to the Merovingian, is he dead or was he a smith?

Now this is a good question. I think that the Merovingian and the other exiles are "free" still, as long as they were in one of the Merovingian's environments. Smith seemed unaware of them, or unable to get to them, since we never saw him there or accessing those places. The Merovingian has been an exile inside the matrix for so long ("one of the oldest of us"), I think of him as having created his own matrix inside the matrix (hey! There's that pesky mim!) and he is the undisputed master of it. Even the Train Man answered to him willingly (I love Bruce Spence). I think this mim might have been safe from Smith, at least for a while. I don't know if Smith ever had the time to find the Mero and his cohorts and turn them all, but if he did, then he probably turned back, just like the little girl did, when the machines "fixed" the matrix. Once the machines had Smith back at the source with Neo, they no longer needed to hold on to the other programs. Better to let them all go and continue to do what they'd been doing before... I guess.

i was happy that we finally confirmed the question of who the mother of the matrix is, the oracle

Me, too.

[andernout]

well i saw it, and i think im gonna have to see it a second time before i give a yay or nay...

i was right about neo sacrificing him, as well as him sort of splitting himself between the two worlds...

the matrix fims confuse me most of the time, but i knew as soon as trinity bit the dust neo would soon follow...

also if commander locke had died, it would have made it more apparent for morpheous to asssume command..but then, who knows....

btw, why do things always have to end with smith exploding?

ä

[pkgrl]

I think the Smith exploding thing is kind of a bookend for the film. The first and last ended with Smith exploding, but Reloaded didn't. I think, symbolically, Smith (or any program) that seems to explode means it's being absorbed by the source... thus the bright light. Remember, to Neo, the entire machine world was made up of lights and the door leading to the source in Reloaded was a bright, white light, too.

Yeah, I could tell by the look on his face after Trinity died that Neo was probably planning on sacrificing himself. He remembered that the Oracle told him that the only way to reach the future was "together," meaning by working with the machines. Pretty sure I mentioned in one of the Reloaded threads that Smith was the only variable that had to be contained in order for humanity and machine to have peace again... or something like that.

I'm glad they didn't go "formula" and kill Locke. He's easy to dislike, but he was right about that EMP, wasn't he? Besides, would you really want an idealist like Morpheus in charge of Zion defenses? I wouldn't. I'd pick the pragmatic a$$hole anyday, 'cause I'd know that I could count on him to do his job in spite of his "beliefs." Morpheus is good at what he does, so he should keep doing it. There will be others to free, still, and the Architect promised not to interfere.

[timdgreat]

i have other thoughts,

do u think the machine city was what a city built my programs would look like? i imagined it being blocky and precise, not so shall we say disorganized as it looked.

do u think that ball with the spikes was the source? it seems likely, but wasnt definitive for me.

What do u think the machines will do with Neos body?

do u think they might have been able to bring him back? (i wonder on this point a lot)
more will come later:rolly2:

[pkgrl]

Originally posted by timdgreat
do u think the machine city was what a city built my programs would look like? i imagined it being blocky and precise, not so shall we say disorganized as it looked.

Actually, it does. And remember, these aren't computer programs, they're machines. Sentient machines, but these guys are the hardware that built it all. Their city might appear chaotic to us, but they seemed aware of precicely where everything was. Their spacial recognition was astrounding, especially when those mini-squiddies were flying aroung Neo.

do u think that ball with the spikes was the source? it seems likely, but wasnt definitive for me.

No, I don't. I think it was more like thier highest ranking general, or something. I don't think they'd expose their 'creator' to an infiltrator... even Neo. And, yes, I'm sure that they knew it was Neo even before he stepped up to the edge of that... platform? I think of the spikey ball as the machine's General Staff... all of 'em. With all the defenses it had, and the many uses of those mini-squiddies (after all, they formed that "face" we saw) I think it's a much more useful tool than the Source could be.

What do u think the machines will do with Neos body?

do u think they might have been able to bring him back?

Good questions. I was touched at how reverantly they seemed to treat him at the end, but I have no idea what they might do with it. If they actually do revere him, I don't think they'll liquify it, but if they're as practical and logical as the Architect program, then they might just figure, 'hey, it's a dead human, liquify it and feed it to the pod babies.' Harsh to us, but hey, they are machines.

[cersei]

Yes I know Neo assumed the "crucifixion" position but does that necessarily mean he died? After all the programmes taken over by Smith returned to themselves? or is it Neo saying it felt like dying in Reloaded when taken over by Smith?

And Sati asks Oracle about seeing Neo again and she says "Maybe" (I think but was not a negative anyway).

just some thoughts...

[pkgrl]

Well, with all the Christ imagry and knowing how that story ended, yeah, I'd say Neo had to die. Doesn't mean he won't be "resurrected" at some later time... maybe like the One apparently keeps on doing, but for the purposes of this story, Neo's dead. At this point in Neo's life, he no longer has a reason to live. There's no one to return to, no one to love him the way he needs to feel it, no one to remind him of all the good of humanity. Without Trinity, Neo's no longer a man. All he is by the end of the film is the Savior. All he has left to do if fulfill that purpose.

And I think he died in the real world when his Smith-overwritten avatar blew up. With him and Smith being two sides of the same coin, I think Neo only really let go once he knew his flip side was going to the source as well. He'd achieved everything he'd promised.

Originally posted by timdgreat
What do u think the machines will do with Neos body?

Just so you know who to blame for this next bit of musing I thought about this question all morning yesterday, and hearing Dave Matthew's Band's "Gravedigger" just added fuel to the furnace. You may have figured out by now that I'm a pretty sappy person. :blush: So here's the idea that started forming yesterday. Feel free to bash it or add to it, but until the W Bros tell me otherwise, it's my gospel.

These machines aren't like the machines we know. They were originally created by humans to be like humans. The Architect program isn't very typical of the programs created by these machines, either. (Look at Rama, the Oracle, Seraph, even the Merovingian.) He doesn't understand choice because it's not part of his prigramming, whereas programs like the Oracle have to understand choice. In order to understand humans, a program would have to understand choice. Because these other programs not only understand choice, but are capable of making their own choices, one has to conclude that they've learned a lot about humans in general. They understand human connections and emotions, and I'm certain that they also understand symbolism (or they wouldn't use it themselves).

Now if the programs know all this (and not all programs are exiles) the machines must know it, too. With this understanding may come a certain amount of compassion, too. If not, at least as a gesture of peace, or maybe even to prove that The One was gone "forever," the machines might just return Neo's body to Zion. I even added to this, thinking that, after finding Trinity's body in the Logos, they might return her, too, recognizing her as Neo's aide if not his wife (sybolically speaking) since she piloted the Logos to their city. These are highly sophisticated machines after all.

Then I started to wonder if they might find Bane's body. I decided that Neo and Trinity would have dumped Bane before they took off, and if the machines found it, they'd just liquify it, not knowing what part that particular human shell had to play in Neo's life. Just musing.

[timdgreat]

interesting theory pkgrl,

I have several things of my own to add to this, First what would hte point of the machines keeping Neos body intact, to them it would be a waste, so i am betting that they will most likely destroy it, even if i wish they wouldnt:rolly2:

[cersei]

perhaps a small point but I have been reading of how Neo uses "some power" to destroy Smith from within....this is not what I interpreted which is Neo realised he had to allow Smith to take him over and then as he is plugged into Machines, Machines can send in "anti-virus" programme to kill Smith, evident to me by way Neo's body jerks in Machine city as if something being passed into him from Machines....

thoughts?

[pkgrl]

Yeah, cersei, I gathered that, too. That's why I said I thought it was Neo's plan all along to allow Smith to overwrite him. I had an idea that he shared his plan with the machines and they helped him impliment it, knowing it would kill both Neo and Smith.

This is also one of the reasons that I think, despite Neo's body being waste after death, they might treat it with some reverance and return it to Zion... along with Trinity's. :naughty: It might be waste to them, but if they returned it, it would no longer be theirs to worry about. All other flesh would be liquified and re-used, of course, but I just think these machines are more sentiently evolved than previous machines. They understand the importance of certain concepts to humans and might want to build on the peace finally established by Neo. They didn't want that first war, anyway.

There's another revolution for you cersei. In the Anamatrix, we saw the machines trying to sue for peace, but now, it's Neo asking for peace in the name of humanity.

[cersei]

glad ya agree pkgrl, your opinions matter much to me

I don't think Neo "planned it all along" but rather he re-entered the Matrix hoping to figure out way to beat Smith (plan A : beat the **** out of him) but at the end when he heard Oracle's words he realised the only way to beat him...was to submit to be taken over for Machines to do rest....he could see how Oracles was affecting Smith as she was powerful and by same merit, Neo would/could also be used to affect Smith..

EDIT: came across this opinion online which is very interesting..

The Oracle tells Neo that Smith is the exact opposite of Neo. She says that the matrix is being balanced by having Smith become far more powerful than he ever should've been because Neo was becoming far more powerful than he should've ever been.

Smith could dublicate himself indefinitely.
Neo could extend his power into the real world.

In the same conversation she said that the Architect was there just to balance the equation. So, essentially, the equation is like this:

Let Neo = 1
Let Smith = -1

Once Smith overwrote Neo:
-1 + 1 = 0

This is why Neo just dissapered in the Matrix after Agent Smith exploded. It's total annihilation.

[Dave]

Thanks for helping me understand this a little more. I'm sure that the theme was choice now.

Originally posted by pkgrl
Most people will stay inside the matrix. It's home. It's comfortable and safe and we humans like things to be easy more often than not. In Reloaded, the Architect gave the number as "nearly 99% of all humans accepted the program as long as they" had a choice, even if the choice was nearly unconscious. You saw the "fields" of fetuses. There are still billions of humans on Earth, and almost all of them were or will be plugged into the matrix. Barely more than 1% of them will be dissatisfied enough to be "freed" to live in Zion. There has to be cooperation (as the Oracle said in Reloaded) in order for humans AND machines to survive on Earth. As long as the people believe that they are living their own happy little lives, and believe that they're free, who are we (or the Zionites) to argue?

This is exactly what I thought too.

Originally posted by pkgrl
These machines aren't like the machines we know. They were originally created by humans to be like humans. The Architect program isn't very typical of the programs created by these machines, either. (Look at Rama, the Oracle, Seraph, even the Merovingian.) He doesn't understand choice because it's not part of his prigramming, whereas programs like the Oracle have to understand choice. In order to understand humans, a program would have to understand choice. Because these other programs not only understand choice, but are capable of making their own choices, one has to conclude that they've learned a lot about humans in general. They understand human connections and emotions, and I'm certain that they also understand symbolism (or they wouldn't use it themselves.

Most humans, given the choice, will stay inside the Matrix, but now they have the choice. Given the fact that they do have a choice, the free humans cannot argue that there is any moral reasons to free them.