Iron Council by China Mieville

[rune]

Originally Posted by caladanbrood

Iron Council is not the best constructed of books... It jumps around, and, although it does make sense in the end, is quite confusing most of the time


I won't spoil anything, but Mieville's endings continue to dissapoint although in Iron council, it was a technical point, not just not liking the end

I agree this book is jumping around a bit. And as yet I'm unable to see the link between what is going on at PSS (in the city) and what is going on with the little group out in the wild looking for the Iron Council.

Hopefully it will all come together.

I am finding Mieville's style very blunt in this book, more so than his others.

[Rane Longfox]

There is a link. It all comes together at a hell of a rate at the end

[rune]

I've finally finished this book. Needed to take a rest from it at one point and read something else.


I personally dont think this is the best book so far in the series, for me, it's the worst.

There are some good scenes and as always I really love Mieville's imagination. The creatures and his world are just brilliant
I enjoyed the storyline with Cutter and Co searching for Judah and the Iron Council. So wierd and exciting stuff there.
The storyline of the revolt in New Crobuzon which follows Ori is not as engaging but interesting at times.

I hated the back story to Judah, and felt it was wasted time having to go through it. I nearly put the book down to be honest at this part because I personally didnt see the need to go into so much detail

The joining of the two storylines at the end was weak. I couldnt help but wonder why there had been the need at all for the revolt plot other than to have a link back to the city.

It did make for a confusing read all this jumping around, and IMHO didnt really enrich the story that much. I real shame as there were some great scenes in the book and I felt Cutter and Judah were the strongest character's during their original storyline of their journey to find the Iron Council

[Jay]

It's being reported that Iron Council just won the Locus Fantasy Novel of the Year to go along with the Arthur C. Clarke Award he won earlier this year.

[Rane Longfox]

This is bizarre. I didn't think Iron Council was anywhere near as good as his other stuff

[rune]

Originally Posted by caladanbrood

This is bizarre. I didn't think Iron Council was anywhere near as good as his other stuff

I have to agree with you on this one

[Jay]

This is bizarre. I didn't think Iron Council was anywhere near as good as his other stuff

I have to agree with you on this one

Iron Council's competition didn't include his other works so teh fact (whci his one I agree with) that it isn't quite as enjoyable as his prior 2 novels doesn't really matter in regards to the award.


I enjoyed thw first 2 Bas-lag novels more, but admittedly I thouth Iron Council was still damn good. (In htat I don't think anyone could have written anything like it, and it was good)

From a structural sense it improved greatly, which was the chief knock on Mieville among critics, his imagination/descriptive language has always been bountiful, but almost so much so, that Mieville ignored any semblance of structure within his work (and in doing so he got away with with it better than anyone I have witnessed in a while). From that perspective, I can see the improvement in Iron Council; but like I said I prefered both Perdido Street Station, and The Scar, but still enjoyed Iron Council to a degree, that I'm can't argue the choice. The only other works that compared last year IMHO, won the Best New Author Award, Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell, by Susanna Clarke, and Stephenson won the best SF Award for his Baroque Cycle offerings - so all the basis were covered IMHO

[Rane Longfox]

Looking at the top five (Song of Susannah, Going Postal, The Wizard Knight and The Family Trade) I'm not suprised that Iron Council beat of the opposition.

I just didn't realise it was such a weak year for fantasy

[Brys]

Originally Posted by littlemissattitude

Sounds good. I do have a question, though. You say that this one can be read independently of "Perdido Street Station" and "The Scar". But what about those two. I just bought "The Scar" yesterday (had a birthday gift card to spend, but they didn't have "Perdido"). Should I wait to read "The Scar" until I have read "Perdido" (which I can get from my local library)?

I didn't - I read the Scar first, and barely missed out on anything. There is one moment where they refer to the incident that takes place in Perdido Street Station, but it is so minor (a couple of words, literally) that it doesn't make a difference. I don't think it really matters at all which order you read them in. With the Scar first, I actually found it interesting to be able to go back and actually read what really happened with this incident which there wasn't really any detail on in the Scar, but sounded interesting.

I just bought Iron Council, and I'm looking forward to reading it soon.

[mikeo]

I'm kind of curious to know what people thought of the characters in The Scar and Iron Council, especially compared to Perdido Street Station. I thought they were all really well written books with an incredible setting - the details of the worlds are superb. Only problem was, I really struggled to care about the main characters in The Scar and Iron Council. I coasted along, enjoying the details and the structures of the books, but it's a bit of a struggle reading a book when you don't really care if the main characters die on the next page! Was it just me, or were they all a bit difficult to like as people?

[Brys]

I've read Iron Council now, and I don't know what everyone's complaining about. Sure, it may not be as perfect as the Scar or Perdido Street Station, but even Mieville's weak books are better than 95% of the competition. At first, I hated how he had shifted his writing style so much. Then the more I read, the better it seemed, and I think if anything it just increases my admiration of Mieville because he shows that he isn't limited to a baroque style of writing and he is at least the second best living writer IMO. The weak part of this novel was the first section with Cutter, which didn't grab me in the same way as the others, but after that it was back up to his usual standards.
Most were difficult to like as people, but I think that is entirely the point, and one of the reasons I like his books so much. If you look at a David Eddings novel, almost all the characters on the good side are very likeable people. Does that make it worth reading? No. They aren't realistic at all. Most people aren't likeable in real life, and they aren't here, which is the good thing. That doesn't mean he can't create sympathy for them - admittedly, it wasn't done as well as Peake's Gormenghast with Steerpike, but then, what really can compete with that?

[The Blackfish]

Originally Posted by mikeo

Was it just me, or were they all a bit difficult to like as people?

No mikeo, it wasn't just you. I too find many of China's characters very difficult to like.
Like many people seem to have done I also started reading Mieville from The Scar, and am now halfway through Iron Council (in the slow back-story of Judah, to be exact). I have to agree that the strength of his writing keeps me interested more than any other part of the book. (For instance the confusing and random structure!)
I know that a good writer does not make all his characters "goody-two-shoes" free from moral complications, but it can get a bit tiresome when all the characters seem to be spiteful, boring, sulky or just plain crude. A good writer has the ability to bond characters to readers, even if those readers don't always agree with the actions of the character. Unfortunately I have not yet bonded with any of Mievilles characters and find them rather irritating.

Also - has anyone else noticed that there doesn't seem to be much beauty in the world of Bas-Lag? Sure there are amazing things, but the closest I think Mieville has got to actual beauty was the description of the underwater Crab City in the Scar. I loved those people, but about half-way thorough The Scar they seem to have been forgotten, and I have not encountered them in any parts of the books since. Every other town or city in the whole of Bas-Lag seems to be dirty, dingy, scummy and depressing in appearance and in population. I find it rather tiring.

That said, Mieville is definitley a writer of innovation, and it is his incredible creativity that keeps me reading

[knivesout]

Yes, but there are such a number of unlikable and ugly things and people in our own world, I don't find it a problem. Mieville has jetissoned the lulling sense of aesthetics for a world that's as messed-up as ours,but fantastic in that it's full of strange creatures and weird magics. It's a very conscious thing I think and a worthwhile challenge to the reader.

[Brys]

I still don't think there should be a necessity for characters you can bond with. They can be done well (though the examples of them are very rare indeed) - but there is no such thing as a perfect person in real life. Why should we have them in fiction? They're boring and predictable, and it's far more interesting for me to read about a reprehensible, Machievellian character than to read about someone who has no flaws. Mieville has some characters which are generally "good" - Cutter in Iron Council for example, but they aren't without their flaws. If writers such as Gabriel Garcia Marquez can do it and get a Nobel prize for literature partly because of that, I don't see why there should be requirements for sympathetic characters in fantasy.

Also - has anyone else noticed that there doesn't seem to be much beauty in the world of Bas-Lag

Yes - Mieville has as well. He was asked a question about where were the nice parts of New Crobuzon, and realised that he hadn't described them nearly as thoroughly. But it's a position I sympathise with - most industrialising cities are not at all beautiful, and we haven't seen much by way of landscape - in Iron Council it was only where the train was, and then the route that followed wasn't through the nicest terrain either. I can't remember another town being properly described other than New Crobuzon, so I don't know how we can generalise that they are all

dirty, dingy, scummy and depressing in appearance and in population

. We've got the evidence of one city here, and that city is heavily influenced by London.

[The Blackfish]

"(Myrshock) was an ugly port ... The architecture looked thrown together, chance materials agregated and surprised to find themselves a town. Old but without history. Where it was designed, its aesthetic was unsure - churches with cement facades mimicking antique curlicues, banks using slate in uncommon colours, acheiving only vulgarity" - Iron Council, pg22

There are descriptions of other places scattered through the books. This was the one I have encountered most recently.

Of course there are unlikeable and ugly things in our own world. But that doesn't mean that they are the only things that exist or that have the power to effect change. Ugly is ugly specifically because it is contrasted against the existence of something beautiful. And I have no illusions either of what 19th Century London was like. But not all of England was a reflection of that big stinking city.

I am not immature enough in my reading to need one-dimensional hero figures, and am definitely not asking for a perfect character. I agree with you Brys, that characters such as these are dead boring.

In general, I was making a point that without certain elements of beauty, nobility and selflessness, a potentially great story may remain only a good story.