The Oracle and The Architect

[SlimFace]

I'm afraid some of the responses to what I said earlier are based on only a part of what I said.

I said that she did lie. I backed this up by explaining that one of the definitions of lying is the following: leading someone to believe something that you know is not true. Assuming that she really knew that he was The One, the Oracle did lie!

Tabitha: I'm not refuting the idea that she should've told him what she told him. I'm just stating that she lied in the process.

Cersei: She lead him to believe that he was not The One, even though she knew he was. There's absolutely no reason to think that he wasn't The One until after his death, especially because he was exerting One-like qualities (the bullet-dodging), and because Trinity loved him before he was dead.

Skyron: Finally someone realizes why I'm saying that she lied!!!! Although I disagree with your conclusion (that the statements were vague enough for them to not be misleading), I'm glad to see that someone realizes that I was trying to say that she was lying based on the fact that she led him to believe something that isn't true.

[pkgrl]

It might sound like we're quibbling about semantics here, but

She lead him to believe that he was not The One

I disagree with this. She didn't lead Neo anywhere or to any conclusions. She just didn't disagree with his own assertion.

Remember, she told Neo that being the One was like being in love. "No one can tell you you're in love, you just know it, through and through, balls to bones." At that point, Morpheus "almost" had Neo convinced that he might be the One, but Neo didn't believe it himself. He didn't know that he was the One. This new self awareness is what was lacking, not any kind of confirmation that the Oracle might have provided. She knew that Neo had to discover that he was the One on his own or he'd never actually be able to take on the role successfully. He had to live through those "miracles" that were set up for him, do the "impossible" and hear Trinity's affirmation before he could truely belive it himself; before he could know himself to be the One. Therefore, the Oracle did not lie to him. She did, as Mopheus said, tell him exactly what he needed to hear; namely that Morpheus believed and that Neo would have to make the first of his most difficult choices; to save Morpheus by sacraficing himself.

Edited to add: Think of it this way. If Neo possesses that extra programming that makes him the One, even if he's had that since birth, that doesn't necessarily mean that he is utilizing it. Perhaps the program is there, but it's not running, so when the Oracle looks him over, she sees the program ("you've got the gift") but also sees that it's not running ("but it looks like you're waiting for something"). She can't just tell Neo, 'well, you're the One, so get used to it and start acting like it'; he wouldn't be able to. He has the get that program running himself. That make any sense?

'K, was that just way too much?

Did I mention that I have a bit of an obsessive personality? Maybe I should have. :blush:

[skyron]

PKGrl!

You have said what I was thinking.

The one quality that makes someone the One over anyone else with the 'Splinter in his mind" (implanted code wich may be placed into many candidates, I think) Are the most human of qualities... imagination, vision, faith, love and courage. All of which Neo didn't really exhibit in abundance at the first meeting with the Oracle.

Can we say that thiese are the qualities that the Machines are most interested in? That they value thiese human qualities to such a degree that they will risk the possible destruction of the Matrix to get access to them in the form of the programm disseminated into the source? all of which Neo didn't really exhibit at the first meeting with the Oracle.

And since the Oracle didn't detect said qualities in sufficient abundance (cuz she cant read humans very well, only code...???) at that point in time, in her opinion, He was not the one. If however, her thinking goes, if he makes the right decision regarding Morpheus and himself, that will be the telling evidence. And further more, perhaps the Oracle told trinity what she did because she saw that Trinity was the kind of woman that would ONLY fall in love with a super wonderfull teriffic kind of guy with the best most wonderful human qualities. (kind of like all the women I date).

so she didn't lie, she just made a decision based on the data at hand.

___________________
it's like a splinter in your mind

[SlimFace]

pkgrl, you brought up something that I had never thought of before. When Morpheus asks Neo, "Do you believe it now?" (= do you believe that you're The One now?), Neo responded by saying, "But the Oracle told me...." What he was going to say can only be assumed, but I think we can safely assume that he was going to say, "But the Oracle told me that I'm not The One." From this, we can infer that she did, in fact, lead him to that conclusion....a false conclusion.

Any thoughts?

[Jkaiyummie]

Well, the path of the One probably do end at the Source since there is still Revolutions to think of. Perhaps Neo will eventually reach the Source at the third installment.

I also have this wild notion that Smith probably will somehow absorb the Architect unto himself. hehe. hence him and Neo punching each other and they both flew from the impact. Smith probably gonna absorb even the Merovingian. but like i said, wild notion. hehe

Hmm. i was looking over at www.thematrixonline.com site and i was thinking if this is the aftermath of the three movies and the Matrix is still among us. Perhaps We are lead to believe that the machines are monsters or the bad guys. But perhaps Neo is brought about to unite the two, Humans and Machines. WHO THE H*LL KNOWS!!!! hehe. my brains is itching for the third movie. oh and i really gotta buy Animatrix soon. perhaps it would sate my hunger a lil. just a lil. damn movie can't get enough sleep.. :dead:

[Spudnik]

well, i have always thought that trinity was the mother of the matrix, but thats imho.

well as far as i can tell, the oracle never lied, but did what morpheus said she did: told him what he wanted to hear. other wise he would have acted the way he did on the Nebuchadnezzar all over again in the matrix.

anyway, what i was meaning to say was this: Neo (as the architect pointed out) is a compilation of the errors in the matrix code. thats why he can see the code, and all the differences between exiles and regular programs alike (remember how he saw seraph?). Neo being a compilation of these errors would logically be able to manipulate the errors, giving him the appearance of having powers. The architect and the oracle alike can see the future through Neo. when the oracle sees neo, she sees his path. she sees it up to the point where his path goes beyond her scope. in that aspect, she is like a chess program, but no further. she does see the future, but up to a point. beyond that point she can no longer see with clarity or accuracy, so she doesnt bother.

if anyone here has played the game, youll know what im about to say next, and can confirm it: "72 hours. thats how long zion lasted last time" this rogue program that survived the last matrix with his memories intact depicts exactly what choice neo made on the last encounter with the architect. the architect makes it seem like neo always makes that choice. after all, how many matrices existed before the one we witness? if any had been successful in freeing zion, no matrix would currently exist. this is probably why the oracle cannot see past the white door. neo being the sum of all the errors and being human is the reason why "something's differnt...i can feel them." neo realizes for the first time that the errors are everywhere, even in agents and in squiddies. it is then my prediction that in the next movie we'll see neo manipulating the agent's structure. but not the architect's. remember the architect is the "perfect program."

if neo reaches the source, he would likely not be able to do anything since his "power" involves the manipulation of errors. but this again is imho.

dispute me if you must. ill be watching.

ps. not bad for a first post, eh?

EDIT: just had a thought: the merovingian lies, doesnt he? can that mean that other programs lie? aside from the architect, because if he could lie he wouldnt be perfect.

[cersei]

I agree with all your points here.....when I say, Machines do NOT Lie, I mean literally, ie they will not say something which is clearly untrue.

Whether you consider stating vague things which mislead people as lying is up to you. A lot of what the Oracle says can be interpreted different ways....however she does provide direct truths (ie Morpheus will find the One, Trinity will fall in love with the One, The path of the One ends at the Source and the war will end since Matrix reloaded and Zion destroyed....this one she believes to be true since it is in her programme).

So what I mean is it is a moral definition you are looking for, yes you could argue the Machines lie in this sense. However more often than not the people whom are gullible enough (except Neo really) to believe in say the Oracle fully. Morpheus is after all the Dreamer...

I see it more as people lying to themselves than blaming the lie on the Machines

[pkgrl]

but I think we can safely assume that he was going to say, "But the Oracle told me that I'm not The One." From this, we can infer that she did, in fact, lead him to that conclusion....a false conclusion.

That is provided that we "assume" and "infer" certain facts about what Neo was thinking and what he was going to say. I think it's obvious that we was, indeed, going to say that the Oracle said he wasn't the one, but that's an error on his part. He heard what he wanted to hear just as the Oracle told him what he needed to hear. He simply wasn't ready to know that he was the One.

I even made a list of clues that would identify a savior... or a chosen One (told you... I've gone overboard :blush: ). They include being born to fulfill a prophesy, performing miracles, raising the dead, and being resurrected from the dead. Obviously these are all Christ-like deeds, but that's about the only "savior" I have to base any of this on. I don't have to list how Neo fits this model, do I? All this stuff was done in the first film and I think most of us have discussed it in detail before. (If you do want the list, lmk.) Point is, he hadn't done any of that before seeing the Oracle. He'd been born (obviously) but had yet to fulfill any prophesies. The rest of it he accomplished later.

Spudnik: Symbolically, Trinity is a mother figure, but I doubt that she is the mother of the Matrix that the Architect was referring to. If she is... GEEZ! What a complex program that would be! After all, she's the source of Neo's love. (To quote Cypher: "What a mind job!")

cersei: Exactly. I think this sums it up best:

I see it more as people lying to themselves than blaming the lie on the Machines

[Spudnik]

the only reasons i have to believe trinity is the mother of the matrix, come from three different sources: a) (i know its a little silly) freudian psychological idas that portray a son wanting to bang his mother and kill his father. (see) b) logic would dictate that if Trinity was the mother of the matrix, she would have (in an earlier existence at least) provided him with the errors in the matrix (i.e. the birth of neo, because without flaws, he wouldnt exist.) and from the evolution of the code, provide him with growth and strength and power. c) from the architect's speech (ive only seen the movie once, so bear with me if ive misunderstood some things) he says Neo will flee to his mother (or something) and then neo asks if his mother was the oracle (i think) but the archtect laughs and up comes trinity on the t.v.'s (or so ive come to understand). tru dis?

btw, this is on topic since ive included the oracle and the architect.

[cersei]

Can't agree with your conclusions there Spudnik

Only seen movie 3 times (nothing compared to the legendary pkgrl hehe) but have read transcipts of Architect dialogue many times and he does not mention running back to his mother .

Only thing I can say is I do not think the Oracle is the Mother of The Matrix but that "Please" is sufficiently vague (as in a lot of cryptic Machine talk) to mean either ways.

My theory as I have said is Persephone....esp with detailed examination of origins of her name.....furthermore, this "Mother" is said to be a programme orginally designed to examine "certain aspects of human psychique" ie in thsi case, Love. Hence her wanting not only to kiss Neo but also Ghost and even Niobe in ETM game

[skyron]

Im sorry, dear friends, but im going to have to get cranky here

How on earth could Trinity be the mother of the Matrix? Trinity lives in the 6th ideration of zion which must, by merrit of people like Tank and Dozer who were born there, and old people like that fellow Neo talks to in engeneering (the councellor guy) who said he was freed at the age of 12, Must be at LEAST two generations old. And since the previous One started Zion with the, we can assume standard, 27 individuals chosen from the matrix and factoring in the population of Zion at 250,000... even with a large facor of people who were freed from it by the resistance, the current Zion would have to be at someware around 100-200 years old.

Now from Smiths speech in the first movie we can infer that the matrix is changed and modified only after some catistophic failure, a "loss of entire crops"

My point is how could Trinity, a woman of 30 odd years and who was most likely freed as a child, and has never been to the source, and who is not an "An intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche." possible be the mother of Matrix V 6.0?

I still think the Oracle is the Mother or even Persephone, But Trinity? Impossibe!!

[Spudnik]

you believe the one was re-incarnated in neo.
why not trinity being the re-incarnation of the mother of the matrix? it would make sense that if neo was to start zion up again (again only an IF!!) he would want to do it with someone he loved (i.e. trinity). if her death came about, then neo's death would be "inevitable" too. but people like him more than her.

debate it if you must people, but i hold fast to my belief...however trivial it may be. lol.

[pkgrl]

I'm taking the whole "mother of the Matrix" discussion to another thread. It's a poll, so vote and let's continue the debate over there.

As for the Oracle and the Architect: I'm pretty confident that they can be "believed" but can we really know their intentions? It's been mentioned several times around this bboard that interpretting their words can be done in several different ways.

For instance, I'm coming around to the idea that when the Architect describes the "mother" of the Matrix, and Neo says, "The Oracle," he's right. I think I misread the Architect's response of "Please" and that he meant it as a chide for Neo having interrupted him. He immediately follows it up with, "As I was saying..." so I think this is most likely.

I posted in the symbolism thread and in the "What do they do" thread regarding WHY I think the Oracle is the Mother, so feel free to read those and bash my ideas there.

[skyron]

Well if you are saying that the mother is a reincarnated in Trinity than I suppose it's possible. However I never said that Neo was a reincarnated One, I said he caries the same code that the other ones carried. IE all people carry the code (splinter) but the person who assumes the roll of the one imprints on the code those qualities that machines are most interested in. (OK im spliting hairs i admit)

I think it's kind of a minor point anyway, just in the context of a screen play. The writers were clearly (for my part) trying to sugest to the audience that the Oracle (intuative program, intuative, intuition, fortune teller, oracle...) was whom the Archetect was talking about. Yes PK thats what I think the Architect said "Please" cuz he was interupted.

Of course, if im wrong, I will post as much here in 6 months.