Matrix Reloaded -- SPOILERS! - Page 4 - Science Fiction Fantasy Chronicles: forums

timdgreat · 29th May 2003, 08:25 PM

wow i go away for 2 days and look what happens, lots of new ideas and several new members, welcome by the way

Ok so im still on the fence about the whole idea of Zion and the "real world" being another level of the Matrix, although i am leaning towards the idea that it is. At this point the arguments that have been made and after seeing the movie 5 times it does seem fairly likely that Zion is a seconed matrix, although i cant come up with a reason for Neos powers other then that, im sure there is one.

Another question about the Archeteict and what he said, Did he specifically say that the matrix would kill all the people in it in 24 hours? cuase i dont remember ever hearing a time limit.

(will have to think more on all the other posts, but keep the in depth thinking coming

):rolly2:

cersei · 29th May 2003, 10:04 PM

No, I don't think the Architect said in 24 hours...he merely said if left unchecked, the Matrix will break down. 24 hours may have been quoted in regards to time left for Sentinels to get to Zion since counter-attack failed...

pkgrl · 30th May 2003, 02:23 AM

No, the Architect never said that Zion had 24 hours.

Architect: "Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash, killing everyone connected to the matrix, which, coupled with the extermination of Zion, will ultimately result in the extinction of the human species."

So... is Zion "real" or another system altogether?

Here's another head-scratcher: If Zion is just another level of the Matrix, then how come some of it's inhabitants don't have plugs? Remember in The Matrix, Tank said didn't have any plugs because he was "100% home-grown human, born right here in the real world," just like his brother Dozer. Link and Zee don't have plugs either, and neither did several others I saw in the Zions scenes. Anyone who believes that Zion is another part of the Matrix have any ideas for that one? Tabitha? Cersei?

drdouglasp · 30th May 2003, 03:06 AM

i think the reason that the true zionists don't have the plugs and stuff is because the machines place them in zion before they get outfitted to be place in the matrix...
like when they are still babies or something, maybe raised by machines. who knows

this would further the idea that there is a resistance and that "real" humans are left on earth....

Tabitha · 30th May 2003, 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pkgrl

Here's another head-scratcher: If Zion is just another level of the Matrix, then how come some of it's inhabitants don't have plugs? Remember in The Matrix, Tank said didn't have any plugs because he was "100% home-grown human, born right here in the real world," just like his brother Dozer. Link and Zee don't have plugs either, and neither did several others I saw in the Zions scenes. Anyone who believes that Zion is another part of the Matrix have any ideas for that one? Tabitha? Cersei?

C'mon!

If Zion is just another level of the Matrix, then we are back to layers of belief. Thomas Anderson at the beginning of the first movie didn't have honking great black spots all over him because he didn't KNOW he was in the Matrix. By the same token, I believe that Morpheus and Trinity et al *believe* they are in the real world, and therefore accept everything in it. It is Neo's sudden control over the machines that begins to show the cracks of this world - isn't it convenient that the only people that might really know, or have some perspective on the truth are unconscious?

When I say that Zion is another level of the Matrix, I believe that none of the humans are actually aware of this. They think they are really free, fighting a war against the machines, when in reality I believe they are also hooked into a simulation maintained by the Architect, or other humans, or somthing else altogether. The difference between the rebels and the humans in the original Matrix is that they sensed something wasn't right, and discovered part of the 'truth'. They made the choice not to accept the Matrix, but what they didn't know that rather than wake into reality, they were simply moving between levels.

The whole freak-out factor of the first film was that the simulation was so real it was impossible to tell it from reality. Doesn't that throw every 'reality' into doubt? Or is the 'Real World' and Zion just so terrible it has to be real?

deadboy · 30th May 2003, 05:32 AM

i promise the Enter the Matrix synopsis soon...gotta refresh a few areas and dialogues before i do tho...

however... just a little trivia type thing:

at one point, Niobe (capt of the Logos) is about to jack out of the matrix at a pay phone, when a derelict (bum) walks by her and says, "72 hours..."
Niobe: what did you say?
Bum: 72 hours...that's how long Zion lasted last time
Niobe: who are you?
Bum: oh i'm just a spectator, enjoying the show...(or something like that)

you're little 24 hour quibble reminded me of that...

db

Tabitha · 30th May 2003, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by deadboy
i promise the Enter the Matrix synopsis soon...gotta refresh a few areas and dialogues before i do tho...

however... just a little trivia type thing:

at one point, Niobe (capt of the Logos) is about to jack out of the matrix at a pay phone, when a derelict (bum) walks by her and says, "72 hours..."
Niobe: what did you say?
Bum: 72 hours...that's how long Zion lasted last time
Niobe: who are you?
Bum: oh i'm just a spectator, enjoying the show...(or something like that)

you're little 24 hour quibble reminded me of that...

db

Hey Deadboy - if you haven't already done it, I am pretty sure I saw a fairly detailed synopsis at the Reloaded IMDB page.
Apparently the bum you mention is the same fella that has just been to see the Merovingian before Neo et al get there!

cersei · 30th May 2003, 10:14 AM

yep its that same long haired bum being shown very briefly being shoved off as Neo arrives to see Marovingian...

could he actually be THE ONE BEHIND IT ALL? hmm....

as for why Tank, Link and others not have plugs in real world, that's simple

its just another simulation anyway and if Machines wanted them to have antennas, they would

in order to make them think they are in "real world" they are born intoa different programme anyway. They do have plugs but their programme avatar does not

just like Neo did not when he thought he was "real" in the Matrix

anything for u Tab

pkgrl · 30th May 2003, 12:10 PM

Guess I'd better get that frelling game installed, eh?

I know I'll have more dilemas after work... do most of my thinking about the Matrix there.

timdgreat · 30th May 2003, 08:48 PM

a thought i just had after reading the last couple of posts,

asuming that the "real world is just another say layer of the matrix, then when a system crash ocurred that killed every one in the matrix wouldnt it also just kill all of Zion, making it unnecesary for the Squids to wipe out the population. Or do u think that the Arceteicht was just talking about all the people in the Matrix we know of?:rolly2:

HeyLynny · 1st June 2003, 05:03 AM

I just saw the movie and was not really impressed. The action and computer graphics was amazing, but the movie itself did not pull me in. When it was over I was like, "That's it?" I didn't really get it. Neither did the people I went with. Maybe the 3rd one will tie it all together. I still have hope.

cersei · 2nd June 2003, 01:04 AM

Just read this entire thread and you weill understand HeyLyny.
It is far deeper than any other movie I have ever seen. And no, I dont think the action is that amziong though ehhe

pkgrl · 4th June 2003, 01:26 AM

Okay, just saw Reloaded for the seventh time today and I'm beginning to believe in the MIM theory. It even gives Neo's "it's a bomb" line more weight. If he's already feeling that "something's different" before they leave the ship, and it builds until he turns to stop the squiddies, the MIM sure would explain all that.

Seraph: I remember someone mentioning that the computer programs look different to Neo. That their code appeared golden/white instead of green, because we see Seraph in that golden code. But remember that Neo saw the three agents at the end of the original film in code, too, and they were green like the rest of the Matrix. Based on that, and the fact that Seraph is the only program whose code we're shown, I think that the W bros are telling us that Seraph is special. All we really know about him is that he glows and that, in his own words, he "protects that which is most important." What this important thing is, we don't know for sure. We're led to believe that it's either the Oracle or access to her, since that's what immediately follows his words, but we can't be sure. It's possible that what he's protecting is the future. The Oracle said she's "interested in one thing: the future." So if Seraph is acting as her bodyguard, maybe what he's protecting is the future... through her. Last thing about Seraph. I think he glows golden/white is because he's an angel. The seraphim were archangels, like Michael, so his name is highly symbolic.

I noticed a couple new things about the screens in the Architect's room, too. Like when the Architect tells Neo that Zion is about to be destroyed, Neo says "bullsh*t" and so does every Neo face on those screens, like bullsh*t is the only possible response to such a damning assertion... or the only one the Architect could predict? The other thing was... during all those cries of denial and anger behind Neo after the Architect revealed that there had been five previous One's, one of the responses that is voiced is "I'm scared." That's one I wouldn't have seen coming. It surprised me, and also reminded me that Neo is, in fact, human.

I love the depth of this film!

cersei · 4th June 2003, 07:12 PM

Nice thoughts pkgrl. Congrats on 7 viewings

I won't be anywhere near that...one more time to make it 4 or perhaps total of 5th at most

Its not that i get bored with it but do love other movies too hehe.

Anyway will be plenty more watching come Nov with DVD hehe

I had same thought about Seraph yesterday as it turns out as again Machines/Programmes may say something which on face value may mean the obvious but its not always the case

So "I protect that which matters most" may not necessarily mean the Oracle. Like your theory though that it may mean the "Future".

The "I am scared" Neo is nice touch too

Jkaiyummie · 4th June 2003, 07:53 PM

Here's a thought on Seraph:

In Isaiah 6:1-2 'In the year the king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Above is stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.'

6:5-7 'Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undoone; because I am a aman of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of Hosts. Then flew on of the Seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar. And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.'

Plus I read somewhere that Seraphim is Hebrew for cleansing/burning. Perhaps that's why Seraph is glowing and 'burning' and he gave Neo, the One, a test (of fire perhaps?) to see if he truly is who he is. by fighting Seraph with hand to hand (touching?) he is cleansed and purified. hehe cool eh.

Plus you can see the Seraphims hovering the throne of the Lord as if guarding it. Well, they are guarding it. Hence Seraph's protecing 'which is most important'.

29th May 2003, 08:25 PM	#46 (permalink)
timdgreat For the Emperor Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Alexandria VA, USA(Washington DC u idiots) Posts: 3,093	wow i go away for 2 days and look what happens, lots of new ideas and several new members, welcome by the way Ok so im still on the fence about the whole idea of Zion and the "real world" being another level of the Matrix, although i am leaning towards the idea that it is. At this point the arguments that have been made and after seeing the movie 5 times it does seem fairly likely that Zion is a seconed matrix, although i cant come up with a reason for Neos powers other then that, im sure there is one. Another question about the Archeteict and what he said, Did he specifically say that the matrix would kill all the people in it in 24 hours? cuase i dont remember ever hearing a time limit. (will have to think more on all the other posts, but keep the in depth thinking coming):rolly2:

30th May 2003, 05:32 AM	#51 (permalink)
deadboy Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 3	72 hours... i promise the Enter the Matrix synopsis soon...gotta refresh a few areas and dialogues before i do tho... however... just a little trivia type thing: at one point, Niobe (capt of the Logos) is about to jack out of the matrix at a pay phone, when a derelict (bum) walks by her and says, "72 hours..." Niobe: what did you say? Bum: 72 hours...that's how long Zion lasted last time Niobe: who are you? Bum: oh i'm just a spectator, enjoying the show...(or something like that) you're little 24 hour quibble reminded me of that... db

1st June 2003, 05:03 AM	#56 (permalink)
HeyLynny Explorer Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: New York Posts: 621	REview I just saw the movie and was not really impressed. The action and computer graphics was amazing, but the movie itself did not pull me in. When it was over I was like, "That's it?" I didn't really get it. Neither did the people I went with. Maybe the 3rd one will tie it all together. I still have hope.

2nd June 2003, 01:04 AM	#57 (permalink)
cersei Matriculated Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 126	just read this entire thread :) Just read this entire thread and you weill understand HeyLyny. It is far deeper than any other movie I have ever seen. And no, I dont think the action is that amziong though ehhe

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29th May 2003, 10:04 PM	#47 (permalink)
cersei Matriculated Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 126	No, I don't think the Architect said in 24 hours...he merely said if left unchecked, the Matrix will break down. 24 hours may have been quoted in regards to time left for Sentinels to get to Zion since counter-attack failed...

30th May 2003, 02:23 AM	#48 (permalink)
pkgrl Ultimate J/A shipper! Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 2,423	No, the Architect never said that Zion had 24 hours. Architect: "Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash, killing everyone connected to the matrix, which, coupled with the extermination of Zion, will ultimately result in the extinction of the human species." So... is Zion "real" or another system altogether? Here's another head-scratcher: If Zion is just another level of the Matrix, then how come some of it's inhabitants don't have plugs? Remember in The Matrix, Tank said didn't have any plugs because he was "100% home-grown human, born right here in the real world," just like his brother Dozer. Link and Zee don't have plugs either, and neither did several others I saw in the Zions scenes. Anyone who believes that Zion is another part of the Matrix have any ideas for that one? Tabitha? Cersei?

30th May 2003, 03:06 AM	#49 (permalink)
drdouglasp Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 3	i think the reason that the true zionists don't have the plugs and stuff is because the machines place them in zion before they get outfitted to be place in the matrix... like when they are still babies or something, maybe raised by machines. who knows this would further the idea that there is a resistance and that "real" humans are left on earth....

30th May 2003, 10:14 AM	#53 (permalink)
cersei Matriculated Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 126	yep its that same long haired bum being shown very briefly being shoved off as Neo arrives to see Marovingian... could he actually be THE ONE BEHIND IT ALL? hmm.... as for why Tank, Link and others not have plugs in real world, that's simple its just another simulation anyway and if Machines wanted them to have antennas, they would in order to make them think they are in "real world" they are born intoa different programme anyway. They do have plugs but their programme avatar does not just like Neo did not when he thought he was "real" in the Matrix anything for u Tab

30th May 2003, 12:10 PM	#54 (permalink)
pkgrl Ultimate J/A shipper! Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 2,423	Guess I'd better get that frelling game installed, eh? I know I'll have more dilemas after work... do most of my thinking about the Matrix there.

30th May 2003, 08:48 PM	#55 (permalink)
timdgreat For the Emperor Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Alexandria VA, USA(Washington DC u idiots) Posts: 3,093	a thought i just had after reading the last couple of posts, asuming that the "real world is just another say layer of the matrix, then when a system crash ocurred that killed every one in the matrix wouldnt it also just kill all of Zion, making it unnecesary for the Squids to wipe out the population. Or do u think that the Arceteicht was just talking about all the people in the Matrix we know of?:rolly2:

4th June 2003, 01:26 AM	#58 (permalink)
pkgrl Ultimate J/A shipper! Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Southern California Posts: 2,423	Okay, just saw Reloaded for the seventh time today and I'm beginning to believe in the MIM theory. It even gives Neo's "it's a bomb" line more weight. If he's already feeling that "something's different" before they leave the ship, and it builds until he turns to stop the squiddies, the MIM sure would explain all that. Seraph: I remember someone mentioning that the computer programs look different to Neo. That their code appeared golden/white instead of green, because we see Seraph in that golden code. But remember that Neo saw the three agents at the end of the original film in code, too, and they were green like the rest of the Matrix. Based on that, and the fact that Seraph is the only program whose code we're shown, I think that the W bros are telling us that Seraph is special. All we really know about him is that he glows and that, in his own words, he "protects that which is most important." What this important thing is, we don't know for sure. We're led to believe that it's either the Oracle or access to her, since that's what immediately follows his words, but we can't be sure. It's possible that what he's protecting is the future. The Oracle said she's "interested in one thing: the future." So if Seraph is acting as her bodyguard, maybe what he's protecting is the future... through her. Last thing about Seraph. I think he glows golden/white is because he's an angel. The seraphim were archangels, like Michael, so his name is highly symbolic. I noticed a couple new things about the screens in the Architect's room, too. Like when the Architect tells Neo that Zion is about to be destroyed, Neo says "bullsht" and so does every Neo face on those screens, like bullsht is the only possible response to such a damning assertion... or the only one the Architect could predict? The other thing was... during all those cries of denial and anger behind Neo after the Architect revealed that there had been five previous One's, one of the responses that is voiced is "I'm scared." That's one I wouldn't have seen coming. It surprised me, and also reminded me that Neo is, in fact, human. I love the depth of this film!

4th June 2003, 07:12 PM	#59 (permalink)
cersei Matriculated Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 126	Nice thoughts pkgrl. Congrats on 7 viewings I won't be anywhere near that...one more time to make it 4 or perhaps total of 5th at most Its not that i get bored with it but do love other movies too hehe. Anyway will be plenty more watching come Nov with DVD hehe I had same thought about Seraph yesterday as it turns out as again Machines/Programmes may say something which on face value may mean the obvious but its not always the case So "I protect that which matters most" may not necessarily mean the Oracle. Like your theory though that it may mean the "Future". The "I am scared" Neo is nice touch too

4th June 2003, 07:53 PM	#60 (permalink)
Jkaiyummie Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 11	Here's a thought on Seraph: In Isaiah 6:1-2 'In the year the king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Above is stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.' 6:5-7 'Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undoone; because I am a aman of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of Hosts. Then flew on of the Seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar. And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.' Plus I read somewhere that Seraphim is Hebrew for cleansing/burning. Perhaps that's why Seraph is glowing and 'burning' and he gave Neo, the One, a test (of fire perhaps?) to see if he truly is who he is. by fighting Seraph with hand to hand (touching?) he is cleansed and purified. hehe cool eh. Plus you can see the Seraphims hovering the throne of the Lord as if guarding it. Well, they are guarding it. Hence Seraph's protecing 'which is most important'.