Matrix Reloaded -- SPOILERS!

[cersei]

Allow me to explain my views PKgrl (and great website and discussion thread by the way)....

IN each version of the Matrix, everyone from Zion is different since each batch is killed and another new 23 picked from previous Matrix is used to repopulate new Zion. So, in Matrix/Zion ver 1.0-5.0, there is not necessarily a Morpheus....by this I mean a Laurence Fishburne character as there may undountedly be different humans using that nickname (after all they are all Hacker nicks)..similiarly, no Trinity, no Lock etc...

This also resonates with Morpheus syaing that "throwaway" line about there being another whom could manipulate the Matrix and free the first of us ie Previous Neo whom freed the first 23)

However, Neo (and the Oracle) remains the same but since no one knows what The One (or Oracle for that matter until I presume she contacts someone to be "one whom finds the One" ie Morpheus as we know it in latest Matrix) looks like, they still have to find him.

Others like Merovingian and Persephone have been around because they are programmes which have figured out how to survive the reboot.

Those other Neo's in Architect's monitors from previous versions are all Neo (rather Keanu lookalike as we know it) and their different reactions to what Architect says (hence some saying, One? Two? Three? in response to previous Matrices)

BY this same rationale, it seems more sense Neo too is a programme....and ultimately one whom will turn out to sacrifice himself for humanity (sob sob)

In regards W Brothers adding "Please" to dismiss Oracle simply coz Gloria Foster passed away(we will surely miss her, rest in peace), I seriously doubt it. Everything has all been planned well in advance by those brothers. Anyway, I read that the Merovingian sends his henchmen to destroy the Oracle's "shell" (ie Gloria Foster look) as he did say to warn the fortune teller her time is up (he is fed up of thse repeated reloads and asking each Neo to come bug him for Keymaker?)...so this allows another actress to play the Oracle in next film..

[Tabitha]

Originally posted by cersei
so this allows another actress to play the Oracle in next film..

Yep, just gotta echo this - Dark Horizons posted a pic of the 'new' Oracle a day or two ago.

[pkgrl]

First, I gotta say that the Matrix must have set some kind of record for using the largest number of non-white actors. I was marveling at Zion's racial diversity just the other day.

As for the monitors, I still think they were all Neo version 6.0. I think the remarks he makes are things Neo himself might be thinking or might have said back when he was first freed. They are his human reactions.

So if Neo is a program, a "necessary systemic anomoly" like the Architect claims, that keeps occuring every time there's a new reboot, then wouldn't it want to survive, too? Why wouldn't it try to change every time? Wouldn't it try to disguise itself from the Matrix so it wouldn't have to go back to the source yet again? Neo seems to be learning... so doesn't that mean that every incarnation of him had to go through a period of learning, too? Why would a program that has some choice about it choose to be wiped ever hundred years (or so) instead of choosing to try and disguise itself to hide from the system that wants it to be rebooted? That's what I meant by each One not looking like this Neo.

I like the idea that he is actually a computer program, but then we have all those other programs (Agents, the Merovingian, and even the Architect), whom we're assuming tell the truth, all saying that he's human. So how do we reconcile this?

And I never thought that Morpheus' line about the "first" One was throw away. He was explaining to Neo the origin (as he understood it) of the first One, a story that he knew Neo needed to know or he wouldn't understand why they took the risk to free Neo so late in his life, which was dangerous.

[matrixfreak]

Originally posted by pkgrl
Good point, freak. And welcome to the board! :wave:

Thanks pkgrl! :wave:

Maybe he couldn't because Neo isn't completely sure what his purpose is: he still doesn't know WHY he's the One.

Hey, here's something else I remembered. During the Key Maker's story about the building that houses the "source", Neo has another vision, one in which the building itself seems to be infected, growing blemishes or tumors that knit together, then explode. The fact that these blemishes are the color of fire, and that Neo explodes out of the building in a blaze, is it simply a vision of what his action would do to the Matrix?

I think your on target here. Neo hadn't fullfilled his purpose as 'The One' (to reboot the Matrix). Since everything in the Matrix seems to be pre-ordained or pre-programmed if you will (Thus the oracles ability to know everything that will happen) perhaps Smith did not have the programming ability to 'overwrite' Neo because his fate has already been programmed by the Architect.

As for Neo's vision during the Keymakers monolouge, I think we were simply seeing the series of events that were already programmed to happen or it was forshadowing Neo's choice once he got to the 'source'.

This led me to another thought about the movie that I almost overlooked the first time I saw it. When Trin,Neo and Morpheus go to see the Merovingian, as they're walking up to him at his table, Neo looks to his left and sees someone being taken away and they used that little Matrix sound effect as to say 'This is important, remember it', but it goes by so fast I don't know if this was ever resolved by the end or if it's something for the next film. Anyone else notice this?

[Tabitha]

Originally posted by matrixfreak


This led me to another thought about the movie that I almost overlooked the first time I saw it. When Trin,Neo and Morpheus go to see the Merovingian, as they're walking up to him at his table, Neo looks to his left and sees someone being taken away and they used that little Matrix sound effect as to say 'This is important, remember it', but it goes by so fast I don't know if this was ever resolved by the end or if it's something for the next film. Anyone else notice this?

oh my god! I saw that! I completely forgot until you mentioned it. Neo and the man totally lock eyes and we hear that urgent theme.
Puzzling, I hope it has some relevance.

[zazie]

Hi! This is such a great discussion. Friends and I have been obsessing over so many questions about Matrix Reloaded for the past couple of days. A few people have asked about whether the W Brothers are religious. We came across this really interesting discussion about all of the books this one guy thinks that the W Brothers are referencing:
http://www.corporatemofo.com/stories/051803matrix.htm
Thought you all might want to take a look if you haven't seen it.

[Dave]

Originally posted by pkgrl
I think the images on the TV screens behind Neo and the Architect are all Neo... throughout his "childhood." They're images that Neo will recognize. Notice that many of them are images of what happened to him in the original movie.

This was what I originally thought too, but after reading a lot of online discussion on Matrix Reloaded I have to say the general opinion seems to be that they were the earlier versions of the 'One'. Each Neo picture answers the Architects questions in a different way, and 'our' Neo hasn't heard these questions before.

I don't think that it actually says anywhere else in the film that the earlier versions of the 'One' were Neo lookalikes though, and unless he is an avatar, or a program himself, I don't see how they could be identical in appearance.

I'm not sure what to think now, but if pkgirl still thinks that after 6 viewings, how can I argue?

Originally posted by cersei
Others like Merovingian and Persephone have been around because they are programmes which have figured out how to survive the reboot.

That has got to be true, it seems like a perfect explanation of who and what they are. The Matrix seems to be a very disorderly place though -- a little like my PC -- full of old bits of files and programs that have pieces missing or corrupted.

[pkgrl]

Originally posted by matrixfreak
... Neo looks to his left and sees someone being taken away and they used that little Matrix sound effect as to say 'This is important, remember it', but it goes by so fast I don't know if this was ever resolved by the end or if it's something for the next film. Anyone else notice this?

Totally noticed that, but it just didn't seem important in this conversation. I think that will be taken care of in Revolutions.

Originally posted by Dave
Each Neo picture answers the Architects questions in a different way, and 'our' Neo hasn't heard these questions before.

My friend and I were just discussing this, too. She put it better than I did, so I'll paraphrase her. She said that they are all Neo 6.0 and that each answer represents a choice he might make in answer to the Architect. That's why, when he looks around at them the second time (and we "fly" into one screen only to reach the "real" Neo) he says, "Choice. The problem is choice."

Does that make it clearer? My thinking usually isn't too clear :crazy:, but hopefully you get the picture I'm trying to paint.

I was also thinking more about Persephone today and decided she fit the parameters of the "mother" of the Matrix that the Archtect gave us. She's more of an intuitive program, from an older version of the Matrix, and I think her original purpose was to "investigate certain aspects of the human psyche," ie. emotion. That's why she craves emotion now. She remembers what it feels like, but no longer has the opportunity to actually feel emotion (because her hubby has become such a power-monger), and she's certainly NOT bound by the constraints of perfection. What a mother, eh? :naughty:

[drdouglasp]

Hello all,
i really like a lot of the ideas floating around out here.....

thought i would throw in a few of my own.

as i understand it, this is how the matrix works, when a person is plugged in and their body is a d-cell...
their mind becomes a part of the matrix and therefore is basically a program, one that the matrix controls.
so if the machines wanted you to be a lawyer, thats what you would be...

morphous, trinity and crew have realized that the matrix is controlling them, or was trying to. so they "woke up" and now see the matrix for what it is and have realized they can bend the rules.

neo's "program" is the anomoly and thats why he can minupliate the matrix. he understands that the boundries created by the matrix are **** and he can bend them, more so then others who have woken up... he is faster then agents, and can do things that even the programs can't.

so what i am wondering is why cant neo change the code more? or actually rewrite it? or add something to it?
could he clone himself like ex-agent smith? (crtl-c, crtl-v)

anyways...
maybe since ex-agent smith was "unplugged" and is more then an agent now, he has changed how it all works. he was able infect that guy and leave the matrix and is now somehow controlling the mind of that goatee guy.

maybe when ex-agent smith tried to infect neo, before the big brawl, neo's program got whatever it is that makes agent smith different, whatever it is that allows a program to leave the matrix...
so since neo picked that up, maybe neo's anomoly program left with neo into the real world.
Thus allowing neo to sense the senitenals at the end.
and giving him some weird electrical blast....

im still not sure if zion is another matrix or if it is the real world.
the architect said that 1% of people in the matrix reject it, even if it is sub-consiously. so that leads me to believe that the machines would want control over those 1%.... thus making another matrix, where humans beleive they are trying to save everyone from the 1st matrix.
but if that was true then shouldnt neo be able to see it?
he can see the code in the matrix, he sees everyone like green lines and see programs as glowing yellowish things.
anyways
another thought on there being 2 matrixs... matrixi... more then 1 matrix
is that fact that neo asked trinity to stay out while they went to see the architect, and she did.
but then that other ship got all jacked and everyone died.... so she HAD to go into the matrix to blow up the reserve power grid, so neo could get in the door...
and it all happened just like neo's dream.... (have you ever had a dream you thought was real....)

also if trinity wasn't in the matrix, fighting that agent and about to die... then neo wouldnt have a choice to make when he met the arichtect.

tell me what ya'll think
laters
dr

[deadboy]

hello all...this topic is hella long, and you're all quite brilliantly dissecting this masterpiece film, so i won't trouble you long ... just some thoughts. if i am repeating someone else, i apologize; i kinda scimmed through a lot of those posts.

neo's new abilities:
in the original film, neo sent Smith into, basically, the recycle bin of the matrix, where he faced either deletion or exile. he chose exile. as he put it, and many of you have as well, he felt purpose, as if he obtained parts of neo into his own structure. is it not plausable then, that neo has also obtained parts of Smith as well, becoming more in tune with the actual archetecture of the matrix and thus the machines? when he EMP'd the sentinals at the end, i viewed that in a sense that neo has blurred the lines between the matrix and the real world, essentially because he has become part of both structures. of course, the immense drain that would have on the human mind and body has left him in a coma now, but i believe neo has shown that he now has some sort of control over the machines in the real world, much like he can bend the rules (if not break them) of the actual matrix.

...enough of that...
ENTER THE MATRIX game SPOILERS...

sadly, as you all know, the original actress whom played the oracle died in sept. 2001, before filming had completed for Revolutions. And, she has been replaced. If you have played the game Enter The Matrix (where that picture of the new oracle came from), you will hear a little explanation of how the oracle came to look like she does now. for you i will paraphrase here:
the merovingian sold her deletion codes to someone ... causing the breakdown of her outer shell and much of her memory. her prophesizing has become more vague due to this. she mentions something about how she LET this happen for the life of a child. a child that will play an important part in things to come, much like neo. who this child is is not revealed, but there you have it...straight from the game, which has exclusively shot footage running parallel with the plot of the movie Reloaded and leading into Revolutions.

i am anxious to hear your thoughts.

db

[Tabitha]

Welcome to AScifi :wave:

Thanks for the info on "Enter the Matrix" - I had heard that it filled in quite a few blanks, and your snippet is helpful in explaining some things.

The Merovingian says to Neo at the restaurant "Give the fortune teller this message: Her time is almost up", so evidently that has come true.
And an important child? Things are looking so bleak for Zion and the humans that recently I have begun to think that Revolutions might end with a reboot of the Matrix, but with some special difference, that will make the next incarnation the final one in which the Machines keep control. For example, for all the inhabitants to gain Neo's power, or some such vital change.

Neo is the sixth anomaly - perhaps the child is the seventh? Seven is a number with religious implications, isn't it?


As for your ideas about Neo's abilities in the real world... well, I am still not convinced that the real world is at all real. We have had little or no hints in the series so far that there has been any great leap in human evolution (could there be, with humanity plugged into machines?), so regardless of what abilities he might possess inside the Matrix, I am not swayed by the possibility of him gaining them in a 'real' reality, ditto for Smith's control of the Bone/Bane character.

I think there is some merit in the idea that Neo himself might be a program built into the Matrix - the Architect describes him as being a product of the systemic anomaly arising from the tiny minority of humans that choose freedom - if he is a program, then the reality he awakens to in the original film surely can't be real.
Beyond this, his experience is different from that of the previous anomalies because he has fallen in love - something machines can't do?

So, if Neo is a program, Zion must be another level of the Matrix.
If Neo is not a program, but a human, his powers and Smith's new abilites further suggest Zion is another level of the Matrix.

That's my take for now.

[cersei]

Great to hear of this very interesting bit about "new" Oracle in Enter the Matrix...would be great in fact if someone could post a complete breakdown (even better movie files hehe) of storyline in Enter The Matrix...I have the game but knowing me, it will take me longer than Matrix Revolutions release to finish hehe

Good thoughts about this "important child" being the Next "One", Tab.

As for all the various comments about why Neo not seeing the real world code before and etc, the simple answer is right till that moment Neo went back into Matrix door (as opposed to Source door previous versions), he has always been doing excatly what the Machine wants him to do...even dying, becoming The One etc is all predestined (ok I don't think they meant him to "infect" Smith that way)...possibly because he is only a routine programme but even if human, it is all set for him. Even if he is a programme, he is not "sentient" (or rather, Free of the system as Smith says) right till he "rebels" by going the other door.

so, now for first time, Neo is truly different...not like after the first movie as we were led to believe.....now the Machines should be really scared

[pkgrl]

It's AWESOME to see so many new names coming into this discussion!

t if that was true then shouldnt neo be able to see it (the code)?

That's what I wondered, too. But if the "real" world actually is another level of the Matrix, then perhaps he isn't seeing the code simply because he doesn't believe it to be there. He actually believes that he's in a real physical world, and the human mind is a powerful thing.

In fact, because the human mind is capable of more power than we generally use it for (hehe), why don't more of you guys think that Neo is simply developing more advanced abilities? He is the One, after all. And he's also different than the previous five versions of the One. He might simply be developing the ability to maniplate reality the same way he manipulated the Matrix.

maybe when ex-agent smith tried to infect neo, before the big brawl, neo's program got whatever it is that makes agent smith different, whatever it is that allows a program to leave the matrix...
so since neo picked that up, maybe neo's anomoly program left with neo into the real world.
Thus allowing neo to sense the senitenals at the end.

Yeah, something like that.

Not sure if this is near the mark or not, but I still wonder.

P.S. The "goatee guy" is Bane.

[Tabitha]

Originally posted by pkgrl
It's AWESOME to see so many new names coming into this discussion!

Indeed! Newbies! Nice to see so many people fired up by this movie and coming here to air their thoughts.

Originally posted by pkgrl
That's what I wondered, too. But if the "real" world actually is another level of the Matrix, then perhaps he isn't seeing the code simply because he doesn't believe it to be there. He actually believes that he's in a real physical world, and the human mind is a powerful thing.

Absolutely! I think you hit the nail right on the head. Look at how much Neo's powers within the Matrix evolved once he was told the truth - whereas before he was living out his life bound by the rules of the simulation.

Originally posted by pkgrl
In fact, because the human mind is capable of more power than we generally use it for (hehe), why don't more of you guys think that Neo is simply developing more advanced abilities? He is the One, after all. And he's also different than the previous five versions of the One. He might simply be developing the ability to maniplate reality the same way he manipulated the Matrix.

OKay. Now here is where it becomes interesting.
Neo is the One, lets take for granted he is indeed human and Zion is real.
The One can control the Matrix, or rather, control its code. I think this is something to do with how Neo's mind works - he is capable of gaining a level of clarity and understanding that the rest of the humans are unable to achieve. I see this ability as being akin to being a Chess Master, or perhaps even a Savant - you know, like Dustin Hoffman in Rain Man. No explanation for those abilities, they just exist, and have been documented in human history time and again.

Now, I think Neo's powers are something that could only be expressed in the Matrix - as it is only within the simulation that the code exists to be manipulated by him.

Let me put it another way. When the Rebels get uploads (Kung Fu, hotwiring motorbikes, flying helicopters), do you think they carry these abilities over into the real world? I doubt it. Having the knowledge is one thing - in the Matrix they are able to instantly put that knowledge into practice, but I think in the real world it would require practice and repetition to really utilise this knowledge.

And remember, there are things they can do in the Matrix that aren't possible at all in the real, physical world. Why assume that because you can bend the rules of code so that you can fly in a simulation, you might be able to do the same in real life? I think this is a leap too far for my imagination to take. There are too few clues pointing to this outcome as yet, and too many questions that will need to be addressed before I could accept it.


So basically, I am saying that if Neo IS human, he can't take special abilities into the real world. The problem remains then, how did he disable the sentinels at the end?

My answer would be that (as I have started to say an awful lot - sorry!) what everyone has known as the real world is indeed another level of the Matrix, and Neo has realised this - "Something's different".

[deadboy]

i like pkgrl's theory about the human mind. we as a species only use approx. 3% of our capacity. 3%!!! imagine the things we could do if we could tap the other 97% that just sits there!

maybe neo has gained the ability to access that untapped mental resource, giving him abilities in the real world (or what we've been led to believe is the real world) that the other rebels and humanity as a whole simply cannot comprehend. IF the machine world IS the real world, could neo not have gained abilities previously thought impossible? who knows what that other 97% holds. ever played the game Galerians? neo's little EMP at the end of the movie reminded me of Rion's psychic powers from that game (yeh, i play a lot of games...it's my carreer). it's all just an expansion of the human mind's resources.

of course, if the machine world IS the real world, i concede to my previous post about neo being as one with the machines, due to his uncanny abilities in the matrix, and his merge with smith, (multiple times over).

for those who've not had the pleasure/blessing of playing Enter the Matrix, i will post a plot synopsis for you in a new post. enjoy kiddies...

db