When Sauron Wears the Ring (FOTR)

[webmouse]

When Sauron wears the ring over his gauntlet, why isn't he invisible? Why is it even possible for Isildur to cut the ring off?

If I was going into a battle where lots of people were going to try to kill me and I had a ring that could make me invisible, well, wouldn't I want to be invisible?

Enquiring minds want to know. :rolly2:

[ray gower]

I think this may be an owner/owned thing.

When Frodo put on the Ring, the Ring was taking control of him to announce its presense to its owner.

If Sauron puts the it on, he is taking control of the Ring and whatever abilitiies it offers. In the general scale of things, it is usually better to have an undefeatable army, than mere invisibility.

Tom Bombadil didn't become invisible either, because it could not exert an effect and he had no desire to use it. Thinking of it, the invisible Frodo was not that invisible to Tom either

[ewlyn]

That's an interesting question...

I thought it was that those who were "weak" so to speak, became invisible, while those who were of greater will and power could wield it to command those they chose... also, the ring is manipulative. To an extent, it seems to have a mind of its own, so it would make sense that maybe this would also be a barganing chip to get the owner to carry it around so it might have a better chance of getting where it wishes to go? I'm not sure.

Do not forget that the only invisibility which is seen is when a hobbit or human wears it... and Gollum's race is basically a cousin to the shire hobbits. I would assume that Elves remain visible as well as the wizards.



Also, I don't think Sauron thought he needed to be invisible... he was most likely a vala... he assumed he was invincible against men. He just didn't expect narsil... for Elendil and then Isildur to be wielding an elven blade. Equally, when you can use it to command entire armies, why would you need invisibility? And, now that I'm thinking of it, since he put a great deal of his own power and will into it, and he himself was not invisible, I'm sure he created it simply to magnify his power... maybe he didn't even think it could turn one invisible. I don't know.

Sorry, I'm starting to ramble.

[ewlyn]

Ok, I was talking to my husband about this last night and he had a good point, so I figured I'd include it here. He pointed out that supposedly everyone who has seen the two trees lives both in the "normal" world and the "ring wraith" world. They exist in both at once. So, people like Sauron, Galadriel, Gandalf, etc. are already in both places at once. However, people like Frodo or whoever never saw the trees and hence only exist in the "normal" world so it would make sense that when they wear the ring, they get pushed into the "ring wraith" world and this causes them to appear invisible in the "normal" world.

Did that make sense?

[ray gower]

Think you lost me with the 'two trees'?

But yes. It seems plausible that those that can weild magical powers are at least aware of a different plane of existance, from where they obtain their abilities and that the ring could provide a doorway.

[ewlyn]

In the Silmarillion - and Tolkien Middle-earth history in general - in Valar there were once two trees, Telperion and Laurelin. They gave off a light which the silmarilli were made from. Morgoth poisoned the trees in the First Age before he fled to Middle-earth. However, supposedly anyone who gazed upon the trees - meaning anyone who was in Valar in the First Age - walked in two "realities" at once. Those who never saw the light were blind, so to speak.

And now you can stamp "Tolkien geek" on my forehead. LOL

[pkgrl]

Okay, never knew the thing about the trees, but your husband's theory sounds highly plausable. It makes for interesting discussions.

To an extent, it seems to have a mind of its own, so it would make sense that maybe this would also be a barganing chip to get the owner to carry it around so it might have a better chance of getting where it wishes to go?

This is also an awesome observation. I can totally see this as a tool the ring would use, too. To add to that, remember that the ring wants to get back to Sauron and when Frodo wears the ring and as he gets closer to Mordor, his desire to go to Sauron grows, too. He feels pulled.

They did an excellent job in the movie of illustrating the ring's desire by having it rise, inexorably, toward the Witch King during the Amon Sul scene. Frodo has to fight to regain control of his hand and deny the ring to the captain of the wraiths. Visually, PJ explained a LOT to us with that scene. I understood exactly what was going on even though I had yet to read the book.

[ewlyn]

True indeed. Especially when you think about how Sauron put some of his own power/essance into the ring.

Note to self: Do not keep magic rings which seem to take control of my hand at times.

[Stacy]

Hmm...what about Tom Bombadil? He wore the ring too and didn't go invisible.

Also, wasn't Sauron a Maia, like Gandalf and Saruman?

[ewlyn]

Tom Bombadil is supposed to represent Middle-earth... or rather, he's supposed to be Middle-earth... so if Tolkien's original idea was that anyone who walks in the two realms at once doesn't go invisible, it would make sense that Tom is also exempt. (Did that make sense?)

And you're right, Sauron was a Maia... I said Valar somewhere back there didn't I? Ooops... I think I was thinking of Morgoth. :blush: Either way, Sauron would have seen the light of the two trees... I'll have to hunt down the specific part where Tolkien talks about that in his notes... will report back if I find it.

[imported_polymath]

I think it's got to be a bit more complex than that: there are at least 4 different responses to the ring:

1. Sauron doesn't go invisible (but probably could if he wanted) and presumably has full control over it (reasonably the creator/owner thing).

2. Mortals go invisible and seem to have no control over the ring (Boromir and others think they could use it, but this looks like a rather vain assumption, considering there is no evidence that Isildur could actually do anything with it).

3. Maia and "older" elves (Galadriel) think they could control the ring to a greater or lesser extent, but understand that it would influence them toward evil.

4. Bombadil is totally unnaffected by the ring, and despite being one of the wisest and oldest beings considers it no threat (to himself). He also seems to be able to dampen it's effect on other while in his "realm", as when he asks Frodo to hand it to him there is no reluctance, unlike the string reaction when Gandalf (despite being a trusted friend) asks to look at it.

As for elves being unnaftected, Isildur has at least some elvish blood and it seem to make no difference. The "two trees" theory doesn't fit all the facts as Bombadil is (from what evidence we have) one of the Maia who stayed in middle earth and so never saw them.

Gandalf actually makes an explanation that the "weaker" get pushed into the wraiths world and become invisible in the real world, but it is unclear exactly where the line falls (clearly even the strongest of men are too weak even with a small amount of elvish blood, but we have no idea wether some/all of the elves would be affected).

[ewlyn]

Bombadil isn't a Maia... I think he's something totally different. Or, at least, Tolkien, in his notes that I've read, has never suggested that he is... but the rest of your points are very good.

Although I still think the tree theory makes some sense. And elven blood doesn't mean you've been to the undying lands... just that you have elven blood in you.

[imported_polymath]

Originally posted by ewlyn
Bombadil isn't a Maia... I think he's something totally different. Or, at least, Tolkien, in his notes that I've read, has never suggested that he is...

Tolkien has a very "complete" approach to world creation, and in his many "background" tales he has accounted for the origin of every species and being except Bombadil (I'm sure there will now be a lot of suggestions of other anomolies - should make for an interesting discussion!)

It is (to my view) inconcievable that amongst all this completeness and Tolkien's obsessive attention to detail that he would completely miss such a powerful character as Bombadil, so he must fit into one of the categories described. The only ones powerful enough to be considered are the Vala and the Maia.

The Vala are explicitly barred from Middle-earth, and even if one could visit in disguise it is likely that the wizards at least would know of this and would not so easily have disregarded the possible influences of this. Gandalf at least seems to know quite a lot about Bombadil so it is likely he comes from a race that is familiar.

There is a description of how, when the Maia were gathered into Valinor, a few chose to stay behind in the twilight of Middle-earth, so it would seem fairly compelling, in the absence of any other indication, that Bombadil is one of these.

[ewlyn]

I don't know... I guess I just like the idea of Bombadil being Middle-earth, so to speak.

[imported_polymath]

Originally posted by ewlyn
I don't know... I guess I just like the idea of Bombadil being Middle-earth, so to speak.

Not impossible, in a way: from the "creation tale" at the start of the Silmarilion it is explained how the Vala and Maia created the world, including individual contributions to this, so it would be quite possible for one of them to "be" a part of the world, however both Gandalf and Bombadil himself are quite explicit that his "realm" is quite small, encompassing the old forest and barrow downs.

This area is however one of the few remaining parts of middle-earth that is elatively unchanged since the creation, so it is possible that Bombadil actually "was" a significant part of middle-earth, but has gradually declined (after all, the whole theme of middle-earth is decline and the passing away of the old).