Where have the Aliens Gone? - Science Fiction Fantasy Chronicles: forums

ray gower · 23rd February 2003, 10:13 PM

Prompted by a BBC documentary celebrating 40 years of the Daleks. I began wondering about all the aliens we meet in Star Trek.

Now obviously ST has never invented anything as evil as the Dalek (the Borg are just wuzzies). But they have never provided anything as alien either.

Okay TOS provided regular aliens that were blokes in monkey suits, but now they don't even bother with that!
Each week we meet with new races, whose only difference is a bump or two on the nog, or perhaps a nose job. And it is getting worse! By the last episode of Enterprise, the weeks alien will be a teenager in Levis, T-shirt, punk hair style and a ring through its nose! Perhaps that would actually be an advance?

Now, when this question is raised, the usual stock answers are:-
1/ The make up costs too much for a weekly show.
2/ Gene Roddenberry cast human DNA over the whole galaxy to make them all human and American.

Both of which are absolute cobblers.
a/ The BBC has never been free with money for this sort of thing. The original Dalek (if I remember right from Llangollen) cost them about 25 guineas (about £250 today) and this sort of thing is getting cheaper to do.
b/ As my genetics professor friend at Harvard observes, Gene could scatter what he likes over the Galaxy. It would not make humans the dominant lifeform because the local conditions would prevent it.

So please, why can't we have alien aliens? Friendly or otherwise?

Or have they simply stopped careing?

Dave · 23rd February 2003, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ray gower
Now obviously ST has never invented anything as evil as the Dalek (the Borg are just wuzzies). But they have never provided anything as alien either.

Weren't the Cybermen the original Borg?

The Tholians are slated to appear (or at least be mentioned) in a late S2 Enterprise episode. They are a little different, I would like to see them modernised with better special effects.

Rick Berman has said that he is willing to allow the Gorn to appear in Enterprise too. I think they could improve on the original 'man in a rubber suit' there too.

ray gower · 23rd February 2003, 11:05 PM

So ST didn't even invent the Borg, just made them softer

Wasn't Doctor wotsit from Generations a Tholian?
If so, he was just mad, not bad.

Dave · 23rd February 2003, 11:18 PM

No, No, Dr. Soran was an El-Aurian, the same race as Guinan was. That race didn't even have false noses!!!

The Tholians are meant to live on higher temperature worlds, and have only appeared as shimmering images, which may have been a face, but could have just been a helmet. If we actually do see them, they'll probably be wearing some kind of environmental suits, like the Breen.

I do know what you mean about noses and foreheads though

Enterprise was always going to be restricted by only being able to show species that will appear again, or to have to explain why not. It has given us the Suliban though. Aren't they alien enough for you?

ray gower · 24th February 2003, 12:01 AM

Thanks for the correction. Must have been his name that confused me

Think Soran had an ear job!

Even adding the Tholians and the Gorn still leaves TOS leading about 5:1 all the other series for attempts at aliens.

As for the Suliban, what is their natural shape, when not squeezing under doors?

Dave · 24th February 2003, 08:45 AM

I didn't know if that was a rhetorical question -- they are very human-like

Anyway, here are spoilers for Enterprise S1:

A somewhat primitive species that is no more evolved than humans, from sector 3641. They were no threat until around 2151 when they become involved with a mysterious figure from the future which has given them genetic manipulation technology in exchange for their service in a temporal cold war. They are obsessed with genetic enhancement. Their DNA is still recognizable as Suliban but their genome has been changed enough to support an altered anatomy. Some of their enhancements include - Compound Retinas, subcutaneous pigment sacks, 5 lobed lungs (their lungs normally have 3) with aveoli clusters designed to process different atmospheres. Broken Bow ENT

Suliban genetic enhancements can be removed; in particular, the enhanced vision. The Suliban can evade most sensors. They can turn invisible like a JemHadar. Cold Front ENT

Thinking more on what you said about 'Doctor Who', in the sixties at least, it wasn't afraid to have weird aliens. While 'Star Trek' did give us the 'Horta', 'Doctor Who' gave us 'living' plastic that brought shop-dummies and chairs to life, giant slugs, 'Cybermen' and 'Daleks'.

'Star Trek' has given us very well developed alien cultures -- 'Vulcans', 'Klingons', 'Cardassians', 'Bajorans', 'Ferengi' -- with their own languages, customs and societies -- but where are all the 'Man-eating' plants??

And look at what 'Star Wars' can do -- Jar Jar Binks and the Gungans (the costume not the character), and the Genosians -- all were very original and not just a man in a suit, or a man with ears, a nose and a forehead stuck on.

On the otherhand, how could Starfleet officers ever hope to impersonate aliens if they couldn't get surgically altered simply by the addition of a nose and forehead?

gr8scott · 4th March 2003, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ray gower
Now obviously ST has never invented anything as evil as the Dalek (the Borg are just wuzzies). But they have never provided anything as alien either.

I think the only alien the Trek has ever produced that is truely alien was Species 8472, from Fluidic Space. They were a great concept. Species 8472 were outright evil - since their goal was to purge our galaxy of life. Unfortunately, Voyager killed any chance of them being a great villian. They were a radical departure from Star Trek cannon which favored human-like aliens. Of course there are other great examples of wierd "aliens"... like Tin Man - but not evil.

I agree, however, that the Dalek were much more evil than anything the ST has come up with. The Borg are probably the most evil villian in ST - and the Dalek are worse.

ray gower · 4th March 2003, 04:07 PM

I agree 8472 had potential to be real aliens. But were they particularly evil?

When Voyager found their Delta Quadrant training base, they turned out to be as big a bunch of mindless goodies as Starfleet

gr8scott · 4th March 2003, 04:12 PM

I think they could have been truely evil if they didn't ruin them. Their original goal was to purge all organic life from our galaxy - due to our imperfections. Galactic genocide is pretty evil.

Dave · 4th March 2003, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gr8scott
I think the only alien the Trek has ever produced that is truely alien was Species 8472, from Fluidic Space.

But didn't Trek steal those too? I read that they were very like the Babylon 5 'shadows' and that they were designed and made by the same cgi graphics team.

I agree that they were great in 'Scorpion' and than dummed down subsequently, but nothing new in that, same thing happened to the Borg, the Jem'Hadar, and the Vorta.

gr8scott · 4th March 2003, 05:47 PM

I don't think that Trek stold the idea from B5. The Shadows weren't out to kill everyone... they wanted to enslave due to their view of the older races parentage.

Species 8472 may have been animated by the same company but the original concept was very different and scary. It was the feeling of inevitable doom for everyone. I like these types of villians. I don't understand why writers in many shows are afraid to let these villians really run their course. The problem with ST in general is that it's so sterile - the good guys always win... and not even just in the end. They always have the upper hand. Even against the Borg, Starfleet was not portrayed as defeated. It always held out. It would have been cool to see SF get defeated, then resurrected somehow.

23rd February 2003, 10:13 PM	#1 (permalink)
ray gower Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Gwynedd Posts: 3,586	Where have the Aliens Gone? Prompted by a BBC documentary celebrating 40 years of the Daleks. I began wondering about all the aliens we meet in Star Trek. Now obviously ST has never invented anything as evil as the Dalek (the Borg are just wuzzies). But they have never provided anything as alien either. Okay TOS provided regular aliens that were blokes in monkey suits, but now they don't even bother with that! Each week we meet with new races, whose only difference is a bump or two on the nog, or perhaps a nose job. And it is getting worse! By the last episode of Enterprise, the weeks alien will be a teenager in Levis, T-shirt, punk hair style and a ring through its nose! Perhaps that would actually be an advance? Now, when this question is raised, the usual stock answers are:- 1/ The make up costs too much for a weekly show. 2/ Gene Roddenberry cast human DNA over the whole galaxy to make them all human and American. Both of which are absolute cobblers. a/ The BBC has never been free with money for this sort of thing. The original Dalek (if I remember right from Llangollen) cost them about 25 guineas (about £250 today) and this sort of thing is getting cheaper to do. b/ As my genetics professor friend at Harvard observes, Gene could scatter what he likes over the Galaxy. It would not make humans the dominant lifeform because the local conditions would prevent it. So please, why can't we have alien aliens? Friendly or otherwise? Or have they simply stopped careing?

24th February 2003, 08:45 AM	#6 (permalink)
Dave Wherever I Am, I'm There Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Greater London Posts: 13,781 Blog Entries: 1	Suliban I didn't know if that was a rhetorical question -- they are very human-like Anyway, here are spoilers for Enterprise S1: A somewhat primitive species that is no more evolved than humans, from sector 3641. They were no threat until around 2151 when they become involved with a mysterious figure from the future which has given them genetic manipulation technology in exchange for their service in a temporal cold war. They are obsessed with genetic enhancement. Their DNA is still recognizable as Suliban but their genome has been changed enough to support an altered anatomy. Some of their enhancements include - Compound Retinas, subcutaneous pigment sacks, 5 lobed lungs (their lungs normally have 3) with aveoli clusters designed to process different atmospheres. Broken Bow ENT Suliban genetic enhancements can be removed; in particular, the enhanced vision. The Suliban can evade most sensors. They can turn invisible like a JemHadar. Cold Front ENT Thinking more on what you said about 'Doctor Who', in the sixties at least, it wasn't afraid to have weird aliens. While 'Star Trek' did give us the 'Horta', 'Doctor Who' gave us 'living' plastic that brought shop-dummies and chairs to life, giant slugs, 'Cybermen' and 'Daleks'. 'Star Trek' has given us very well developed alien cultures -- 'Vulcans', 'Klingons', 'Cardassians', 'Bajorans', 'Ferengi' -- with their own languages, customs and societies -- but where are all the 'Man-eating' plants?? And look at what 'Star Wars' can do -- Jar Jar Binks and the Gungans (the costume not the character), and the Genosians -- all were very original and not just a man in a suit, or a man with ears, a nose and a forehead stuck on. On the otherhand, how could Starfleet officers ever hope to impersonate aliens if they couldn't get surgically altered simply by the addition of a nose and forehead?

23rd February 2003, 11:05 PM	#3 (permalink)
ray gower Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Gwynedd Posts: 3,586	So ST didn't even invent the Borg, just made them softer Wasn't Doctor wotsit from Generations a Tholian? If so, he was just mad, not bad.

23rd February 2003, 11:18 PM	#4 (permalink)
Dave Wherever I Am, I'm There Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Greater London Posts: 13,781 Blog Entries: 1	No, No, Dr. Soran was an El-Aurian, the same race as Guinan was. That race didn't even have false noses!!! The Tholians are meant to live on higher temperature worlds, and have only appeared as shimmering images, which may have been a face, but could have just been a helmet. If we actually do see them, they'll probably be wearing some kind of environmental suits, like the Breen. I do know what you mean about noses and foreheads though Enterprise was always going to be restricted by only being able to show species that will appear again, or to have to explain why not. It has given us the Suliban though. Aren't they alien enough for you?

24th February 2003, 12:01 AM	#5 (permalink)
ray gower Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Gwynedd Posts: 3,586	Thanks for the correction. Must have been his name that confused me Think Soran had an ear job! Even adding the Tholians and the Gorn still leaves TOS leading about 5:1 all the other series for attempts at aliens. As for the Suliban, what is their natural shape, when not squeezing under doors?

4th March 2003, 04:07 PM	#8 (permalink)
ray gower Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Gwynedd Posts: 3,586	I agree 8472 had potential to be real aliens. But were they particularly evil? When Voyager found their Delta Quadrant training base, they turned out to be as big a bunch of mindless goodies as Starfleet

4th March 2003, 04:12 PM	#9 (permalink)
gr8scott Tal Shiar Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: San Diego Posts: 264	I think they could have been truely evil if they didn't ruin them. Their original goal was to purge all organic life from our galaxy - due to our imperfections. Galactic genocide is pretty evil.

4th March 2003, 05:47 PM	#11 (permalink)
gr8scott Tal Shiar Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: San Diego Posts: 264	I don't think that Trek stold the idea from B5. The Shadows weren't out to kill everyone... they wanted to enslave due to their view of the older races parentage. Species 8472 may have been animated by the same company but the original concept was very different and scary. It was the feeling of inevitable doom for everyone. I like these types of villians. I don't understand why writers in many shows are afraid to let these villians really run their course. The problem with ST in general is that it's so sterile - the good guys always win... and not even just in the end. They always have the upper hand. Even against the Borg, Starfleet was not portrayed as defeated. It always held out. It would have been cool to see SF get defeated, then resurrected somehow.