Eowyn, the White Lady

[hypocriticHarkonnen]

hey, in all fairness to Eowyn, she hooked up with Faramir in the end, anyway. I like her character, and I can almost understand her thirst to kinda break free of her stagnant life in Edoras. I especially loved it when she fulfilled the prophecy of the one person who would kill the Witch-King. And from what I understand, her 'love' for aragorn would be comparable to 'love' of a fangirl to a rockstar or some such thing. I do agree, though, that I've seen precious little of Arwen in the films.

[Teresa Edgerton]

I agree with everything Paige said except for one thing: I was glad to see more of Arwen in the story (and one little incident waving a sword at the wraiths from a distance doesn't exactly make her into a woman warrior), because that way it doesn't seem like such a slap in the face when Aragorn chooses her instead of Eowyn. I still haven't quite forgiven Book Aragorn for that one, after 40 years.

[Raynor]

that way it doesn't seem like such a slap in the face when Aragorn chooses her instead of Eowyn. I still haven't quite forgiven Book Aragorn for that one, after 40 years.

So, you would have preffered Aragorn to betray the one he already loved for decades, the so called reincarnation of Luthien, daughter of the chief loremaster of Middle-Earth, for a human princess he fleetingly meets? How could his unfaithfulness make him more praiseworthy?

[Teresa Edgerton]

When I first read the book, I didn't know any of that. Learning about Arwen like an after-thought in the Appendix didn't change my mind. And much I cared that she might be a reincarnation of Luthien, when publication of the Silmarillion was not to occur for another decade.

My emotional investment as a reader was with Eowyn, a character I knew, not with a scarcely remembered "Elrond's daughter" that I had a brief glimpse of at Rivendell and no idea that Aragorn even loved her until she arrived in Minas Tirith for the wedding. When Aragorn threw Eowyn over for some virtually anonymous elf maiden, I felt that he had jilted me.

For people who saw the movie without having first read the book, the expansion of Arwen's role in the story spared viewers that same sort of negative impression. They knew that Aragorn was promised to her; they knew who she was and what she was giving up in order to be with him.

He didn't look like a pompous fool who gave up a living, breathing, admirable young woman, for a mere shadow.

[Sibeling]

I never had any problems with Aragorn choosing Arwen. It's only natural - elves are so much more beautiful that human females

And Eowyn fell in love with Aragorn because he was such a big hero, he was everything she wanted to be. And Faramir, to use a modern term, helped her to explore her feminine side and showed that having feelings isn't bad.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Teresa Edgerton

He didn't look like a pompous fool who gave up a living, breathing, admirable young woman, for a mere shadow.

Aren't you being a wee bit meanie?

Originally Posted by The Council of Elrond, FotR

The braids of her dark hair were touched by no frost, her white arms and clear face were flawless and smooth, and the light of stars was in her bright eyes, grey as a cloudless night; yet queenly she looked, and thought and knowledge were in her glance, as of one who has known many things that the years bring.
...
So it was that Frodo saw her whom few mortals had yet seen; Arwen, daughter of Elrond, in whom it was said that the likeness of Luthien had come on earth again; and she was called Undómiel, for she was the Evenstar of her people.
...
Such loveliness in living thing Frodo had never seen before nor imagined in his mind

And much I cared that she might be a reincarnation of Luthien, when publication of the Silmarillion was not to occur for another decade.

Of Luthien it is said by Aragorn:

Originally Posted by A knife in the dark, FotR

...she was the fairest maiden that has ever been among all the children of this world. As the stars above the mists of the Northern lands was her loveliness, and in her face was a shining light.

[Teresa Edgerton]

What Aragorn said about Luthien was, at the time, like a throw away line in the middle of some very tense action. Did I even remember the line, on that first reading, by the time I reached any mention of Arwen being like her? If I did, which is by no means certain, it was not likely to make much impression.

Truly, was I supposed to accept the fact that Arwen was remarkably beautiful and came of a distinguished lineage (and, as it developed later, was a good hand at embroidery), as a reason why Aragorn was supposed to love her rather than the passionate, courageous Eowyn?

In the end, we still don't know much more about Arwen, except that she seems to have fallen in love with Aragorn at first sight of him as a mature man (having briefly known him years ago as a callow youth), gave up her immortality to be with him, and later had qualms when she finally realized how little she knew of the sacrifice she was making. (About Luthien and Eowyn both we know much more, and it goes far beyond beauty.)

Come to think of it, Aragorn also fell in love with Arwen at first sight, although much earlier, which begins to look like the whole attraction (whatever they may both have come to feel and know later) was based on externals.

[Raynor]

Truly, was I supposed to accept the fact that Arwen was remarkably beautiful and came of a distinguished lineage (and, as it developed later, was a good hand at embroidery), as a reason why Aragorn was supposed to love her rather than the passionate, courageous Eowyn?

If you ask me, Eowyn doesn't come out as passionate untill the end - all the way she behaves, and is described, as cold. And there is at least as much desperation in her as courage.

Come to think of it, Aragorn also fell in love with Arwen at first sight, although much earlier, which begins to look like the whole attraction (whatever they may both have come to feel and know later) was based on externals.

Aragorn didn't see just beauty in Arwen, but wisdom too. And it seems to me that Eowyn loving Aragorn for the idea that he represents (and not for himself) is not that praiseworthy .

Originally Posted by The field of Cormallen, RotK

You desired to have the love of the Lord Aragorn. Because he was high and puissant, and you wished to have renown and glory and to be lifted far above the mean things that crawl on the earth. And as a great captain may to a young soldier he seemed to you admirable. For so he is, a lord among men, the greatest that now is.

[manephelien]

I think it comes down to a very modern inability to see "love" as anything except sexual or parental/filial. I never got the impression from the book that Eowyn wanted to marry Aragorn and have his children, as Raynor hinted, I think she was far too cold for that, until Faramir thawed her heart. What Eowyn felt for Aragorn is akin to the sort of admiration one might have for an actor or musician, or any famous person come to that.

[devilsgrin]

Eowyn's feeling were quite literally hero worship. Little more.
Arwen comes across no warmer nor passionate than Eowyn, though she is the far better choice for queen - being of both far more noble birth and possessing the wisdom only a person over 2000 years of age could possess (or was she younger than that... can't recall the timeline where her birth appears... its a least a 1000 years, but i'm sure it was like 2000).

Aragorn's love for Arwen in the books - aside from the appendices as they are not part of the book, proper, - is really very distant and unrealistic.

Its unlikely that the callow youth who first met Arwen would sense wisdom in a person. He had yet to be tested in any way and his perspective of the world was skewed by his long time sheltered in Rivendell. Perhaps Aragorn justified his lust as love by claiming he saw wisdom in her then, as he may very well have when they finally re-met in Lothlorien.

[Raynor]

Its unlikely that the callow youth who first met Arwen would sense wisdom in a person.

Why? I don't see how we can compare Aragorn with any other young man of 20 years. He is true heir to the Numenorean treasures and thus, in his Age, he is the closest a man can get to the unfallen status humans had before being marred by Melkor. He was also raised in the house of the greatest of lore-masters of Middle Earth; all in all, nature and nurture, I think he was quite capable of seeing Arwen for what she was.

[pyan]

Originally Posted by devilsgrin.

Arwen .... possessing the wisdom only a person over 2000 years of age could possess (or was she younger than that... can't recall the timeline where her birth appears... its a least a 1000 years, but i'm sure it was like 2000).

Arwen was 2778 years old when she married Aragorn - who was a mere lad of 88 at the time. She was born during the reign of Valandil, who was Aragorn's thirty-eight x great- grand-father*. Not many women who have a toy-boy 2690 years younger than themselves!
I can see what you mean, devilsgrin - it does seem a tad unlikely that she would fall for Aragorn, especially as she had to make Luthien's choice, and accepted the Gift of Men. No matter how much you love someone, it must be hard to give up Valinor and immortality for them.





*(Just to see what it looks like: Great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grand-father In our own time-line, she would have been 19 years old in the year Rome was founded.)

[Cloud]

Eowyn can't help but be drawn to Aragorn--there aren't too many men of her social level she could be wedded to, and Aragorn is the ultimate catch.

And I think he took her very seriously; he was just already in love with someone else and had made promises to that someone. A man like Aragorn takes his promises seriously.

[devilsgrin]

Why? I don't see how we can compare Aragorn with any other young man of 20 years. He is true heir to the Numenorean treasures and thus, in his Age, he is the closest a man can get to the unfallen status humans had before being marred by Melkor. He was also raised in the house of the greatest of lore-masters of Middle Earth; all in all, nature and nurture, I think he was quite capable of seeing Arwen for what

That is not the impression that i get from reading the appenices that detail Aragorn's childhood/youth. Indeed from these i gathered that a callow youth is all the Elrond saw of him at that time...though clearly with some potential to mature and become worthy of letting his daughter choose to die for him.

Aragorn also comes across as rather petulant and even spoilt... his complaining to his mother and Elrond about why he can't have Arwen, when he has such noble ancestry, one which he shares with Elrond and Arwen themselves, as if his bloodline alone would qualify him for Arwen's husband.
The heirs of Numenor, also recall, had lived in little better than squalor for centuries. A hidden nobility was in them, but they were far from regal.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by devilsgrin

That is not the impression that i get from reading the appenices that detail Aragorn's childhood/youth. Indeed from these i gathered that a callow youth is all the Elrond saw of him at that time...though clearly with some potential to mature and become worthy of letting his daughter choose to die for him.

Ok, let's see the actual source:

"Here Follows A Part Of The Tale Of Aragorn And Arwen", LotR appendices
Then Aragorn, being now the Heir of Isildur, was taken with his mother to dwell in the house of Elrond; and Elrond took the place of his father and came to love him as a son of his own. But he was called Estel, that is "Hope", and his true name and lineage were kept secret at the bidding of Elrond; for the Wise then knew that the Enemy was seeking to discover the Heir of Isildur, if any remained upon earth.

But when Estel was only twenty years of age, it chanced that he returned to Rivendell after great deeds in the company of the sons of Elrond; and Elrond looked at him and was pleased, for he saw that he was fair and noble and was early come to manhood, though he would yet become greater in body and in mind.

Early come to manhood...