7.13: The Killer in Me

[obcooke]

People aren't quite feeling themselves.

Spike's chip is attacking him.

Kennedy skips the Slayers-to-be retreat because of a cold... or is it the hots?

And Willow is feeling a little Warren out... I mean, worn out.

And has Giles really been himself, lately...?

[Highlander II]

Okay - so, question about Giles answered - guess he didn't get whacked in the head by that axe after all - go Giles.

Spike's chip - okay - anyone else starting to hate this thing? (no, I never liked the chip) - but some brilliant acting from Mr. Marsters. Hey not just anyone can lay on the floor in pain and look sexy. :naughty:

And what a name Agent Finn had for him - @$$ face? (Did I hear that right? That's what the other commando guy said, right?)

Two options: 1) remove the chip; 2) repair it -- and it's all up to Buffy - hmmmmmmmmmm - what's she gonna choose?

One more thing about the Initiative - did the commandoes let that demon in just to make sure it was the Slayer, or was he a 'left over'?

Willow as Warren? Was a smidge confused on this point - partly b/c I wanna know - was that really Amy or was that the First 'being' Amy?

Not sure yet how I feel about this Kennedy / Willow thing -

And the Scoobies - Xander, Dawn and Anya - and Andrew working out the bit about Giles - then driving out and tackling him! funny!

Oh - and Buffy can *so* not do covert.

And Buffy and Spike would make absolutely horrid cops - first, Spike fell off the ladder (he's cut slack b/c his head might have exploded about then, but couldn't tell); then the way they were waving those flashlights? eek - and why did Spike need a flashlight anyway? (aside from the fact that James can't see in the dark, but anyway) Vampires have excellent night vision -

And oh, can we PLEASE have Spike do some vampire things? (after they fix the 'chip' issue) remember in "Potential" - Buffy told him to come at her full speed - if he ran at 'full speed' - I don't wanna know what slow is - yeah yeah - explain it away as 'he didn't wanna hurt Buffy' - blah blah blah -- not buying it ---

anyway -- nice episode -- I liked this one - They're getting better -

[tabuno]

:rolly2: "The Killer In Me" had a "24" simultaneous plot action (three in fact) that worked well - not always an easy script to direct. The plot twists were great! There were good emotional cry scenes. The intensity keeps building. The humor and comedy keep coming. This episode really had me on the seat of my attention, frustrated, chuckling, sighing, and worried. It doesn't get much better than this.

[JonahBlack]

Willow as Warren? Was a smidge confused on this point - partly b/c I wanna know - was that really Amy or was that the First 'being' Amy?

As far as we know, Amy's not dead. Moreover, she is touching Willow when they're 'trying' to dispell the glammer (sp?). Moreover, Willow/Warren slaps Amy, so she seems to be corporeal.

I was a little dissappointed with Kennedy during her confrontation with Amy. Amy gives her the magical pimp-slap, sure, but I think when Amy was about halfway through her explaination, Kennedy should have just sucker punched Amy. I suppose that would have ruined the ending, though.

In a similar vein, when did Amy get evil? She was misguided and irresponsible before, but Buffy and co. saved her life. You'd think she'd be more grateful. I think Next ep. Willow should go teach Amy a lesson. :evil:

[Highlander II]

True - Glamour-Warren slapped Amy - and such constitutes 'touching' - but this is based on Giles' information that the FE is noncorporeal - and can't touch anything --

(totally taking this from a chat session I had last night w/ a fan) - but - how do we know that Giles was telling the truth? b/c he's corporeal? Um - something tells me that something as old as the FE could probably find a way to take corporeal form -- but that's just speculation --

And there's nothing in the ep to tell us that Amy isn't an agent of the FE - not a sleeper like Spike, but just an agent of the FE in some way - anything's possible -


Well, remember - Amy got a 'hit' of powerful magic from Rack - and something tells me that that kind of magic is nowhere near 'white' or 'good' - and having that kind of dark magic inside and not dealing with it -- could lead you 'dark side'. No, Amy wasn't technically 'evil' - but that doesn't mean she wouldn't get a bit ticked off - or jealous - and try to hurt Willow.

[JonahBlack]

.

how do we know that Giles was telling the truth? b/c he's corporeal? Um - something tells me that something as old as the FE could probably find a way to take corporeal form

Assuming for a moment that Giles IS the FE, all the info regarding its corporeality comes from the FE. But not all of the info comes from Giles/FE. When the FE was Warren, he told Andrew that he couldn't take coproreal form.

I suppose it's possible, though, that the FE chooses to stay incorporeal, and uses it as an excuse to corrupt people (like andrew), and as a piece of dis-information. However, if it could take solid form, why bother with the less than competent minions? Why not just slay Buffy itself? It's goal is to destroy the slayer line, not corrupt it, so being incorporeal doesn't really seem like a good strategy

[Highlander II]

JonahBlack --> 'Why not just slay Buffy itself?' -


maybe it doesn't wanna get dirty?

I don't know -- maybe it wants to wear Buffy down before it beats her up itself? Could be any number of reasons -

But remember, we are dealing w/ a less than trustworthy entity of evil -- much like Angelus, the FE twists the truth into colorful lies that are quite believable -

basically - in Joss' world - anything's possible

[Brent]

I thought this was an excellent episode, pretty much has already been posted abou it above

I hope Buffy decides to have the chip removed though, since he has a Soul and all now he shouldn't need the chip right, that would be very mature, and show better trust between them, if she decides to have it removed... I guess we'll find out next episode...

[Highlander II]

yeah - let's hope they don't drag out the 'hmmm what to do with Spike's chip' question more than the next ep -


and personally, I'm of the mind that Buffy should ask SPIKE what to do - mostly b/c, as this can be viewed as a 'medical' procedure, if Spike had the normal rights as every other human (yeah yeah - don't get all into the 'he's a vamp, not a human' thing - this is an illustration) the decision would be up to him if he is conscious or coherent enough to make the decision -

Not only that, but what right does Buffy have deciding for him? How many times in recent history could he have killed her and didn't? (Same goes the other way - she kill him) If he was going to hurt her - of his own accord and not under the influence of the FE - he probably would have done it already.

Now, if Spike chooses to have the chip repaired - fine. I can live with that (like I said on another board - I'll think he's stupid, but I can live with it) -- but if Buffy makes that choice on her own - no dice - Buffy's already not one of my fave characters b/c of some of her attitudes and mannerisms and such - she pulls a stunt like that? She's gonna be at the bottom of the list ---

Hmm - anyone up for a human rights discussion applied to vampires?

[obcooke]

Anyone up for a human rights discussion applied to lawn furniture?

Sorry, H2, but human rights discussions should be limited to humans, right? Vampires and demons are less than human and cannot be judged or punished by human standards, no matter how "reformed" they are.

Buffy's a Vampire Slayer, so according to the whole rationale for the series, she has the right to slay monsters at any time she chooses.

Buffy didn't hesitate to go after Anya with murder in her eye when she thought that the demon was a danger to humans, no matter how much Anya had meant to her as a human. Remember what Buffy told Mr. Maclay back in Season Four - "We're family."

[I recently re-watched "Family" and highly recommend it as an over-looked classic, BTW, especially in retrospect.]

Deciding to put a chip in Spike's head seems a humane alternative, by contrast.

Not that I think that's what will happen.

The only dramatic reason for having the chip malfunction at all is so Buffy can choose to have it out. The alternative - fixing the chip - will only maintain the status quo.

She will be stuck with the decision, I am sure. Even if she asks Spike, it will still be her decision to allow him to make the call. That opens up a whole range of repercussions, since she will, effectively, be responsible for everything he does afterward.

There will also be the reaction of her friends and SITs. Xander is sure to be p*ssed and Giles may not be too happy with her either. Anya is bound to bluntly remind Buffy that she will be responsible if Spike kills anyone ever again.

[tabuno]

What does having a soul count as? Or having emotions and feelings? Do we kill animals arbitrarily, wild animals without motive, especially those that are about to become extinct? At what point do humans have the exclusive right to give only themselves the exclusive patent on rights? Does that mean some alien culture has the right to conduct their affairs anyway they see fit, even if it means our destruction because of how we behave as a species?

[Highlander II]

Okay - trying this again - stupid compy -

(fortunately, I save the post that didn't get sent - learned from losing one a while back - grr argh)

And it got done anyway --

No - I wasn't actually asking if anyone wanted to have the discussion - however, it has prompted some things -

Tabuno has a point - and it goes back to the S1 BtVS mentality of 'black and white' - good and evil - and now Buffy and her gang are starting to really realize it's not always that simple - Angel was the starting point - a vampire with a soul, then there was Oz - he's human most of the month and wolfie 3 nights of the month; Anya's an ex-demon (well, she was, I'm guessing she is now, she said so); Willow's a witch - they used to burn witches -

So, they don't burn witches now, does this mean that vampires should be given the benefit of the doubt? No. (can't have Buffy turning into Anita Blake here) -- However, the situation is slightly different with Spike. Yes, they put the chip in his head - a behavior modification chip to zap his head with pain when he tried to hurt living things (obviously plants don't count, and I'm not sure about animals, b/c I don't recall seeing him try to eat rats or anything - until "Beneath You" - and then, he never caught any); okay - so this 'restraint' system prevented him from harming people and he had to find other ways of occupying his time. He learned he could hurt demons, so he helps Buffy - he didn't have to. He could have just beat up demons as he felt like it, but he chose to help (and I know that's more a writing thing than anything else - it's how they wanted the plot to go, but work with me here). Then something happened and he 'fell for' Buffy (not really sure how to describe it, b/c they mostly smacked us w/ it in "Crush") -- anyway - Spike's in love with the Slayer - and she's still of the mind that vampires can't feel - and she holds this belief until the end of S6. It's not until after she finds out that Spike went to get the soul on his own that she considers something else.

So - goes back to a question that Buffy's probably asked herself but never admitted to - can vampires feel? do they have emotions? They have free will - generally, they are demons and they hunt and kill - that's their instinct, but a vampire w/ a human soul - not really a 'whole' vampire anymore. Do we change the rules for them? Buffy always insisted that the rules were different for Angel - "Angel was good." "Angel had/has a soul." -- when Angel lost his soul, she was ready to kill him if she had to - like she was willing to take out Anya if it was necessary; I'm sure she'd do the same to Spike, so why not let the Initiative remove the chip? Or are the rules different for Spike than they were for Angel? If nothing else, Spike should be given MORE leeway than Angel b/c Spike got his soul on his OWN. He wasn't cursed w/ his soul like Angel - I see some difference there.

This is one of those arguments / discussions that could go on forever - and it's why this show is so much fun - b/c it provokes these types of things ---

So - why couldn't human rights (or at least the principles of human rights) be applied to vampires - or, at least vampires w/ souls (like there are more than 2)? Buffy wanted them applied to Oz - he was a werewolf. Remember her speech to Riley? They locked Oz in a cage when he was demony - how is that different from Spike's chip? It's behavior modification. Sure, in Oz's case, he was amenable to the locking, but similar in principle. If they'd let Oz run loose, he would have killed ppl; if Spike didn't have the chip he would kill ppl. So, the question is, now that Spike has a soul - will he kill people of his own free will?

[tabuno]

What about taking out the chip and then we'd have a vampire with "A Chip On His Shoulder.":rolly2:

[Highlander II]

Originally posted by tabuno
What about taking out the chip and then we'd have a vampire with "A Chip On His Shoulder.":rolly2:

<snort> *shakes head*

It's a thought

[obcooke]

[Highlander II: Willow's a witch - they used to burn witches -]

I don't think you can include her because she's still human. It doesn't fall into the category. Which has been changed since Season One from - Kill all Demons - to - Kill all Demons that kill Humans.

[Highlander II: a behavior modification chip to zap his head with pain when he tried to hurt living things (obviously plants don't count, and I'm not sure about animals...]

I think we would have to say that that has changed as well. Remember, "Family" when Spike proved that Tara wasn't part demon by hitting her and feeling pain. Unless all demons, even part-demons, are dead, than he can hurt "living things". I think we would have to say that the chip prevents him from hurting humans.

Pretty fancy chip - must have a human-detector built into it. It even prevented Spike from pointing a fake gun at Xander when Spike didn't know that it was a fake.

[Highlander II: He could have just beat up demons as he felt like it, but he chose to help]

Well, he got paid at first. And then he helped in order to get the Scoobies' help in avoiding the Initiative and then to prevent Buffy from staking him for helping Adam. And then he hung around the fringes, and every once in a while, Buffy would show up and beat him up for information. And then he began to fall in love with the Slayer. So its very debatable how much free choice was involved in his "help", at least until he fell in love.

There are plenty of instances until then where it seems clear that he would have liked to commit more mayhem, but didn't feel it was in his best interest.

[Highlander II: If nothing else, Spike should be given MORE leeway than Angel b/c Spike got his soul on his OWN. He wasn't cursed w/ his soul like Angel - I see some difference there.]

But there is also a difference, in that, Angel had been innocent of killing for a hundred years before he was recruited to help by the forces of good. And from the beginning, Buffy saw him as an ally... a dark, brooding ally, but...

The jury is still out on Spike's soul, since he has killed, although apparently under The First's influence. As you say, we only have Spike's word that he won't kill again and only time will tell.

Those considerations would seem to give the benefit to Angel, since he is a proven non-killer.

[Highlander II: So - why couldn't human rights (or at least the principles of human rights) be applied to vampires - or, at least vampires w/ souls]

Because they aren't human.

SPIKE: I’m not a monster.

XANDER: Yes. You are a monster. Vampires are monsters. They make monster movies about them.

SPIKE: Well, yeah, you got me there.

===============

[tabuno: Do we kill animals arbitrarily...]

Yes, ask any cow.

[tabuno: ...wild animals without motive...]

It's called hunting. Not my things, actually, but not illegal. Although, I'm told the motive is something called sport, which doesn't seem like much of a motive to me.

[tabuno: ...especially those that are about to become extinct?]

No, we kill them to the point of extinction and then go "oops" and try to stop from killing them all, even if it is too late to save the species.

And, of course, some politicians are still in favor of finishing them off, if protecting them will cost them the support of the timber industry, oil tycoons, farmers, etc.

Again, not my favorite thing that humans do, but that's the way of the world.

[tabuno: At what point do humans have the exclusive right to give only themselves the exclusive patent on rights?]

At any point in history. After all, anything that isn't human doesn't get to vote or rule anyone, so they can't give themselves rights. If humans decide to treat, say, animal differently then that's fine, but it still won't be HUMAN rights, by definition.

[tabuno: Does that mean some alien culture has the right to conduct their affairs anyway they see fit, even if it means our destruction because of how we behave as a species?]

That reminds me of a Star Trek where an alien diplomat ridiculed the idea of HUMAN rights as being an insulting term to use when discussing other species.

Haven't you ever heard of The Prime Directive? Hopefully, we won't dictate to them and they won't dictate to us.

Remember the episode where aliens upon reaching a certain age killed themselves rather than burden their society with senior citizens?

Do we declare war on them, in order to "civilize" them and force them to live according to our standards?

---------------

Human rights is a legal/ethical convention created by humans for humans. Besides which, it's difficult to determine a universal code for such rights, anyway. For example:

- Does human rights preclude capital punishment? For some it does, for others its a necessary part of a justice system that protects humans from each other and defends the rights of the innocent to live free of fear.

---------------

But by definition, human rights are exclusive to humans.