Biggest military victory?

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by cymric

Brian I must disagree with your assesment of Thermopalye being a persian victory. The spartans held the pass for 6 days, and grecce only needed three to position their forces. 300 hundred spartans slaughtered 10,000 persians( every one of the Immortals ). Even though the persians did take the pass and march onward to greece proper, just think of what this acutally did to the persian army. The first real resistance they faced from the greeks they where highly outclassed. This caused poor morale in the persian Army, Fear of the greek hoplite, and allowed the time for rest of the greeks to get there act together for the coming war. I think of thermopalye like most Americans think of the Battle of the Alamo. A defiant and tragic stand that allowed the greeks to win.

But...that's part of the point that's missed. It wasn't just 300 Spartans by themselves. They were simply the leading part of a coalition force of around 10,000-15,000 Greeks.

But the film - and something of romanticism - likes to pretend the supporting thousands from smaller Greek states, such as Thespiae - never existed.

[andyn]

No Brian there was a combined Greek force of 3,000 at Thermopalye against over a million. The Spartans were the key element. Without them there would have been no Greek force at Thermopalye.
Also by Leonidas, the Spartan King bringing himself and his personal bodyguard to the battlefield, he guarenteed Spartan involvement in the war.
The most important battle was The Battle Salamis, where the combined Greek fleet defeated the more numerous Persian fleet, which ended The Persian invasion of Greece and prevented a Persian advance into Western Europe.
Victory at Salamis guaranteed the development of Western Society and the growth of Democracy.
No battle ever came close, in importance, everything else was about conquest or personnal aggrandisment. Joshua's conquest of Cannae was actually Genocide.

[I, Brian]

Hi andyn and welcome to the chronicles network.

Originally Posted by andyn

No Brian there was a combined Greek force of 3,000 at Thermopalye against over a million.

Those numbers differ greatly from any prior estimates I've seen - though to be fair it's difficult to rationalise any precise numbers anyway.

Worth perhaps a read of the Wikipedia entry on it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae

[Drachir]

There seems to be a great deal of emphasis on Eurpean history in answering this question, but it should not be forgotten that there were impotant victories in China, India, Japan, and the Americas for that matter. In order to answer the question properly one must consider whether or not the victory significantly changed the course of world history. Using that criteria I would discount all of Hannibal's victories, brilliant though they were - after all, he eventually was defeated by Rome. He may have slowed the Romans down, but he did not stop them.

As for modern battles such as in Iraq it is too early to assess their influence. If I might as a Canadian, I would like to point out that the battles fought in the War of 1812 prevented the United States from controlling Canada. If the United States had controlled 80% or North America it might have had a profound effect on American and world history.

[andyn]

I accept your point Drachir. Unfortunately, i do not know enough about Chinese, American or Indian History. However if you take into account your criteria about changing world History then Salamis has to be the battle. The Persians had just sacked Athens and burnt it to the ground, but it's population had fled. The Persians were now ready to march into Sparta. With his fleet destroyed, Darius abandoned his designs on conquest of Greece and returned to Persia.
The war of 1812 we here very little of from the Americans other than the Battle Of New Orleans, which they won. Obviously it had a significant impact on the development of North American Continent.

[Drachir]

Yes - the Battle of New Orleans - a meaningless contest fought two weeks after the peace treaty was signed. Of course the Americans remember that battle - It was one of the few that they won. They failed in every military objective in that war.

As I said, however, I find it almost impossible to pin down world history to just one battle. Salamis, I agree changed world history, but so did the victories of Cyrus the Great that made the Persians the threat that they were. Really the question of what battle rates number one is a conundrum that may be impossible to answer.

[andyn]

Agreed that it is difficult, but there are major battles that clearly shaped the world we live in.
Salamis, Hastings, Verdun, Stalingrad, Midway, Dien Bien Phu, The Horns of Hattin, the Tet offensive, Teutonborg forrest, The battle of Algiers, Trafalgar etc, etc

[Drachir]

The Horns of Hattin - now that is one I do not know. Where and when was it and why was it important?

[Tsujigiri]

Sorry, Biggest Military Victory.....

Japan - Nagasaki and Hiroshima. 2 bombs....2 cities....ended the biggest war in human history.

You never specified a battle, although in relation to the Ancient World, it's still the biggest military victory.

I'm gonna go crawl back under my rock now before someone points out that the Spartans never had nuclear weapons...and that I'm being a wee bit silly.

[andyn]

The Atomic bombs were not dropped to end the war in Japan, but for the benefit of Russia.

[Tsujigiri]

Originally Posted by andyn

The Atomic bombs were not dropped to end the war in Japan, but for the benefit of Russia.

That makes a certain kind of sense, do you have any reference material I could read about it?

[andyn]

At hand no. The great Myth about the dropping the two Atomic bombs was that it would force the Japanese to Surrender. However, when the Empreror, decided to surrender, there was an attempted Military Coup to oust him, which narrowly failed. It is hardly mentioned in many history books.
Russia had several days before Entered the war against Japan and had successfully invaded Manchuria. There were fears she could also invade Japan or the rest of China. The bombs were dropped as a warning to Stalin, as Truman was more aware of the threat that Stalin posed, than Rosevelt.

[Tsujigiri]

I think I've read something about that before, I'll have to go digging tino tmy history books. Isn't that what began the nuclear arms race that escalated into the cold war?

[Plo Addonnas]

I'd have to say the Vikings sailing up the seine river and sacking Paris or When the Vikings sacked what they thought was Rome but turned out to be a different large Italian city. They pretended that their leader was dead and that he was a Christian and they wanted him to have a Christian burial. When they were allowed inside the city, their "dead" leader got up and the Vikings sacked the city. Too bad it wasn't Rome.

[Stalker]

1. Byelorussian assault operation (Bagration) planned by Konstantin Rokossovsky (june, 1944). The result of operation. The defending army (Wehrmacht) during summer battles lost (KIA, wounded and POWs) over 900,000 men. The attacking army (Red Army) for the same period lost about 100,000 men. Group of armies "Center" was simply annihilated, Group of Armies "North" found itself "locked" in Baltic peninsula. Isn't that the gratest victory ever. Even in 1941 the victorious Wehrmach blowing army after army in the East Front, having POWs whose numbers were hundreds thousands (!!!) was anable to achieve such a score!

2. What about the Battle of Three Emperors at Austerliz?
3. Cannae - good choice resulting in total annihilation of Roman Army
4. Why not Thermopilae? The heroic death of Leonidas and his 300 spartans was strategic victory of the whole Greece.
4. Battle of Pidna. The end of Macedonia. What seemed to Perseus a victory resulted in the end in complete slaughter of Macedonian falanx.
5. Undoubtly, Gaugamela - the triumph of the Macedonian falanx led by Parmenion. Add to this, how badly the Persians outnumbered Greeks and Macedonians!!!
6. Battle of Neva (1240) another example of great victory with small force. 900 foot soldiers lead by knyaz Alexander Nevsky in brave and violent assault defeated completely the Swedish army that outnumbered them at least 12 times. Chronicles say the casualties of Russes were less than 20 men.
7. Battle of Agincourt (1415) - almost unpunished slaughter by English bowmen of the French Heavy cavalry.

Here comes a historical paradox - 2 battles at Marengo and one battle of Waterloo. The point is that the first battle at Marengo was lost by the French to the Austrians. The French Army was commanded by Gen. Moreau and his Head of staff was Gen. GROUCHY!!!!
Then comes Napoleon's turn. When his army seems to be suffering defeat, at the last moment Gen. Desaix' corps arrives at the battlefield and things suddently changed for French victory! Then goes Waterloo - whom Napoleon sent to pursue battered Prussian troops? Grouchy!!! Did he have a better choice? He hoped Grouchy would become another Dezaix when he needed desperately his help. Instead of Grouchy Bluecher arrived .
In the first battle of Marengo Moreau was defeated, and Grouchy was his aide, in the battle of Waterloo Napoleon was defeated and his only hope was Crouchy, and the former failed him. Two battles were very alike but Grouchy unlike Dezaix was evidently a wrong man to help. 2 times!!! True, God is inclined to whimsy.