Does Harry Potter promote the Occult?

[Dave]

I read that religious fanatics last year in the US burnt bonfires of Harry Potter books. Some schools and libriaries have banned the books. Many Christians, although not going that far, have strong reservations about it, in the same way as they do about celebrating Halloween.

But this report on a Moscow investigation from SciFi Wire goes further:

Moscow Scrutinizes Potter

The Associated Press reported that Moscow prosecutors have opened an investigation into whether the Harry Potter series of children's books incite religious hatred. An official from the Moscow city prosecutor's office told the wire service that the investigation was started at the request of a Moscow woman who was upset by the novels and believes they contain occult propaganda.

No criminal charges have been brought yet against the publisher or author J.K. Rowling, but prosecutors will determine if further legal action is necessary when the investigation is complete, the service reported.

I used to hear similar things about 'Dungeons and Dragons' in the early 1980's; That it was devil worship etc. In actual fact, it had clear distinctions between Good and Evil characters, and playing Good characters was much more fun than playing Evil ones. Similarily, in Harry Potter, it is always the Good character who wins in the end. They learn about "The Defense against the Dark Arts"

If it is because they practise magic, then they will have to ban 'Bewitched', 'I dream of Genie', 'Charmed', 'Sabrina', 'Buffy', 'Star Wars'.... ... it will be a very long list.

On that list would have to be 'The Chronicles of Narnia' and 'Lord of the Rings' books which deal with the occult, but also have strong Christian values.

So, what are your thoughts?

[Tabitha]

The thing that freaks me out about this is that my reaction is:
Should it matter if Harry Potter promotes the Occult?

I mean, very few people (in the UK, anyway) of my age group really take their faith seriously these days - personally I would probably describe myself as an atheist. If we have an openminded policy towards all religions, it seems insane that we should even think of banning fictional material based on a creed that is apparently incompatible with Christianity.

Do those schools that ban books like this also ban books like the Torah, or other Holy Books of non-christian religions? I hope not, but can you imagine the outcry if they did? And surely a competing religion is a lot more sacreligious than a work of fiction?

Banning books is always wrong - even in the case where it is something quite contemptuous, like Mein Kampf (btw, I haven't read MK, but I assume it is on some level an explanantion of Hitler's view of race and superiority).

I just think that we should be able to make up our own minds...

[Dave]

First, I didn't expect to cause a religious argument, but I guess with a little more thought I should have seen that.

I am personally, against censorship, as it usually only has the opposite effect of promoting the thing for the wrong reasons. I would agree with censorship to protect minors, but in the case of Harry Potter I don't think it is required.

I am a Christian, though I have some reservations about some of the teachings and I am not Confirmed. I do however, know that many young people that are fully committed, so to say it has no relevance to today's youth, is going a little too far. I also have friends who have discovered Christianity later in life. There are life changing events that happen to people that make them reassess their life, and their spirituality. It just hasn't happened to me. So, even though the Church of England has a serious crisis of membership, I don't think it is dead yet.

I do believe, in what I would call Christian values. By that I mean the Marriage Vows, Love thy neighbour, the Ten Commandments. I also think that most major religions have a similar set of standards. Muslim clerics will tell you what a loving religion Islam is. I also meant no slur on those people who do believe in the occult. There are several members here on ASciFi who have described their Wicca faith quite eloquently. But even though they profess to using magic, they would say that they only use it for good, such as healing.

I am against extremists, and I think that the religious fundamentalism we have seen more of recently is wrong in any religion. It is only a minority of any religion who use it as a reason for carrying out crimes of hate. You could take pieces from any religious text out of context and make it say anything.

I'm not even sure that this woman in Moscow is a Christian anyway, Russian Orthodoxy was banned under Communism, and they have a high proportion of Islamic immigrants.

The "promoting the occult" phrase was used in the article, so it's not one that I would have used. But I still don't think that it does "promote the occult".

That was my point, the fact that even my seven year old son is well aware that Harry Potter is fiction. (As in not the real world.) And the people who believe that reading Harry Potter to children will make them Pagans, are the same people who think that telling children that homosexuals exist will make them all homosexual. This is the kind of bigotry we need to get rid of.

And the friends that I used to play Dungeons and Dragons with didn't turn into devil worshipping, leaders of an evil empire. At least not the last time I telephoned them. Some of them are still Christians too!

[Tabitha]

I didn't think I was having a religious argument with you Dave - more of a "throw my hands up in the air, what kind of craziness have the fundamentalists presented us with now?" kind of thing.
I know there are many people of my age out there that are devoted to their Christianity - I didn't mean to suggest that Christianity was altogether irrelevant, just an odd context for any potential Potter-backlash in the UK, considering the relative decline in its importance for daily life. I am not just saying this - there are facts and figures to back this up (of course I can't find them right now - I tried and can't pin down the poll data that I came across last month). Over and above the membership crisis you mention, I think there is more than a little disillusionment with organised religion, but not necessarily with the beliefs that underlie it. As I said, I would definitely describe myself as atheist, but do try to live my life according to basic principles are far from incompatible with Christianity.

The thing about Potter and religion - and I am saying this from only a casual acquaintance with the source material - is surely that Potter promotes fairly good ideals even while the backdrop is fantastical adventure. The heroic children central to the plotlines are essentially perfect and 'good'. Not demon-worshipping, goat-sacrificing and 'evil'. As you mentioned in your first post, Rowling's stories are very much in the vein of C S Lewis' Narnia books, that are based on christian ideals. I wonder was there any kind of anti-Narnia response when those books were first published?


Yep, I just took the Christian Fundamentalist angle and ran with it - and that isn't what the article was about at all, sorry for diverting the thread.

That was my point, the fact that even my seven year old son is well aware that Harry Potter is fiction. (As in not the real world.) And the people who believe that reading Harry Potter to children will make them Pagans, are the same people who think that telling children that homosexuals exist will make them all homosexual. This is the kind of bigotry we need to get rid of.

I might not have said anything very clearly in my last post, but this is pretty much exactly how I feel.

Originally posted by Dave

And the friends that I used to play Dungeons and Dragons with didn't turn into devil worshipping, leaders of an evil empire. At least not the last time I telephoned them. Some of them are still Christians too!

:lol:
And I am sure all those that read Lady Chatterly's Lover, or watched The Exorcist or A Clockwork Orange didn't become deviants, either. At least I hope not...

[Dave]

Apparently, the Pope doesn't believe so either..

Ananova:

Vatican approves magic in Harry Potter

The Vatican says it approves of the magic and occult practices described in the Harry Potter books.

A spokesman for the Pope says the good versus evil plotlines are imbued with Christian morals.

Some evangelical groups have condemned the books for glamourising magic and the occult.

Reverand Don Peter Fleetwood told a Vatican press conference: "I don't think there's anyone in this room who grew up without fairies, magic and angels in their imaginary world.

"They aren't bad. They aren't serving as a banner for an anti-Christian ideology.

"If I have understood well the intentions of Harry Potter's author, they help children to see the difference between good and evil. And she is very clear on this."

He added JK Rowling was "Christian by conviction, is Christian in her mode of living, even in her way of writing."

Rowling's four Harry Potter titles have sold an estimated 192 million copies worldwide, and the books have been published in at least 55 languages.

BBC Newsround

Pope sticks up for Potter books

The Pope has backed the Harry Potter books and said they're not anti-Christian.

A spokesman for the Pope spoke up for the boy wizard stories at the Vatican on Monday.

Some church groups have attacked JK Rowling's books for being "evil" and promoting witchcraft.

But the Pope's spokesman said at a press conference: "I don't see any problem in the Harry Potter series.

"They aren't bad. If I have understood well the intentions of Harry Potter's author, they help children to see the difference between good and evil."

He added that the Vatican thought JK Rowling lived her life like a Christian, and that her way of writing reflected that.

The Harry Potter books have sold more than 192 million copies worldwide and have been translated into 55 languages.

[Tabitha]

Good for the Pope!

[triffid]

Ya know I wonder if all the people accusing these books of promoting evil and the occult missed out the parts in each book where Harry Potter and his chums celebrate Christmas? I mean surely that counts for something.

[Sinistra]

What a difficult question to answer!

It depends on who you ask...I live in a house sharing with 3 other Christian friends from University. One of them has a big problem with Harry Potter, while one doesn't really care, and another housemate takes the same stance as I do: that there will always be something 'influencing' children and teenagers - for instance take teenage magazines - Some of them 'glamourize' Hallowe'en, putting in all these spells for young girls to do, like love potions or things like that, but there isn't a big debate going on about that, is there? Because Harry Potter is so successful it has been highlighted a lot more and been used as a scapegoat for the rise in interest in Witchcraft.

Er....cant think of anything else to say now lol

[Highlander II]

Ya know -- ppl said the same things about Barney - you know - the big purple dinosaur - b/c they 'teleported' or whatever from place to place --- Barney was 'occult-ish' and 'evil' b/c of 'magic' -- *gasp*!

I haven't read the books - yet - but I've seen the two movies - and I didn't see anything 'bad' about them -- when the 'good gusy' win at the end - how can it promote 'bad stuff'??

My other point -- KIDS ARE READING!!! BOOKS!!! WHY IS THIS A BAD THING???

So many ppl are griping about kids watching too much TV or playing too many video games or spending too much time on the internet --- but when kids find something that they want to READ - ppl get all in a huff about it and want to make them stop. I'm not following this train here... I mean, if they were reading porn or something, I could see the problem, but they're reading a work of fiction -- 5 books - most of which are well over, what? 300 pages?? That's a LOT of pages for a 10y/o to read (10 y/o's read these right? younger ppl? I don't know the demographic for HP) -- so why is this even an issue?? Magic isn't BAD - heck, for the most part - it's not even 'real'! You cannot wave a black stick at something, utter some quasi-Latin and turn a frog into a bird! Physics won't allow it - it really can't happen that way!

I'm guessing the words 'fantasy world' mean nothing to these ppl making these silly arguments??

Really - I don't see how kids turning off the PC, the TV, and the game consoles and picking up a BOOK and reading it can EVER be a bad thing --- Kids aren't any more influenced by what they read in books than by what they see on TV, hear on the radio, read on the internet --- if they ARE influenced by these things in a 'bad / negative' way -- then it's the *parents* who have the problem and didn't teach their children properly -- (or that's part of it - don't want to get into a parenting arguement) -- there are so many *other* factors that influence ppl - a little 'interest' in something new or different - ie: magic, etc - isn't a bad thing - they're LEARNING! Just b/c a child looks up information about the occult, doesn't mean s/he is gonna run off and join up - don't they always say 'knowing is half the battle'? then - getting info shouldn't be frowned upon - it should be encouraged. If kids are informed, then they'll *know* not to join these groups - b/c a) their parents wouldn't approve, or b) they realize it may not be healthy for them.

Okay - think I'm done now -- and I still don't see how finding kids reading is a bad thing ----- (have I said that enough yet?)

[Dave]

Originally posted by Highlander II
I'm guessing the words 'fantasy world' mean nothing to these ppl making these silly arguments??

So, I guess that you don't agree with this guy then that I found via the Cruel Site of the Day website. Am I surprised?

Harry Potter and the Antichrist by Joseph Chambers

Here are a few bits in his essay you might have missed:

Without question I believe the Harry Potter series is a creation of hell helping prepare the younger generation to welcome the Biblical prophecies of demons and devils led by Lucifer himself.

It all began on a train ride in which the whole idea just dropped in Rowling’s head. The very manner in which the series came to her would suggest "spirit influence."

To be a master at sorcery one must learn how to use drugs.

Read it and have a good laugh.

[Highlander II]

I'm not going to read it now - as it'll probably just make me angry - and I have work to do before I leave today -

but I just want to make an argument / ask a question regarding 'religion' --

How do you then explain miracles? You know - the ones listed in the Bible?

I'm not religious by any stretch, but I can't say I'm an atheist either - not really sure where I land on the scale. I'll just put it this way - I believe that there *may* be a God, but I'm skeptical until I have 'proof'. Proof is my thing - I like arguments and reasons to have backing in something tangible. (I'm not looking for someone to prove this to me, so please don't try - just stating where I stand so my arguments make sense in context) --

Again - Joseph Chambers - what is it about magic that he's not understanding? IT'S NOT REAL! None of the things that Harry Potter or Willow Rosenberg or any of the other 'magicians' or 'wizards' do in books or on TV could really happen - based on the laws of physics - which I'm not terribly well-versed in, but I have a basic understanding of the general principles.

I don't see how ppl can get so worked up about 'fantasy' -- or are they forgetting that for a long time various groups of ppl following a certain religion suffered forms of persecution at one point or another? And yeah - this can compare. Wicca - that's a religion of sorts, no? They have their beliefs and their ideals -it's generally more female focused than most other religions - but let's not get into the sexism of religion - but they have their beliefs, which are just as valid as anything Christianity can come up with -- or has religious tolerance been thrown out with everything else in the US? (whole other argument here, so I'll stop) --

Sure, Mr. Chambers has every right to voice his opinion - 1st Amendment says that (and I suppose that the UK may have something similar), but JK Rowling - whether she be UK or US - also has the right to write and publish her works and distribute them to the public. Just as Mr. Chambers has every right NOT to purchase or read said works. Books - just like TV channels - you don't like what's on? - change the channel -- you don't like the book? DON'T READ IT!

*sigh* gotta love these arguments - they're so much fun!!

[Dave]

Even the Queen reads Harry Potter:

from Ananova

Queen shows off Harry Potter knowledge

The Queen has outwitted a group of children with her knowledge of Harry Potter.

She surprised the Bishop of Birmingham, the Rt Rev Dr John Sentamu, by revealing she knew the answer to a question about the teenage wizard's adventures which foxed the young congregation at a service she attended.

Bishop Sentamu said after the service at St Mary's Church, Flitcham, near the Queen's Sandringham estate in Norfolk, she told him: "Fancy the children not knowing about Harry Potter. I really am surprised. I knew."

Bishop Sentamu, who had been invited to preach at the service, said: "Her Majesty seemed to know a lot about Harry Potter. I am quite surprised about that."

The Bishop had asked the children: "A famous professor once told one of his pupils, 'It's not our abilities or gifts which define who we are, but the choices we make'. Do any of you know who that professor was?"

The answer was Professor Dumbledore.

So, the Pope approves of it, and the Queen, defender of the faith, approves of it. Shall I close this thread now?

[Dave]

2007 Update

Well, I'm reviving this old thread because either the new Pope has different views to the old one, or else the Vatican newspaper doesn't speak for the Vatican.
This news today....
JK Rowling's Harry Potter condemned in Vatican newspaper - Telegraph

The Vatican’s official newspaper L’Osservatore Romano, has called the teenage boy wizard “the wrong kind of hero”.

Under the headline 'The double face of Harry Potter’, the lengthy article concludes: “Despite the values that we come across in the narration, at the base of this story, witchcraft is proposed as a positive ideal."

Since my original post in 2001 I've also questioned my own Christian convictions, so like the Vatican don't quote me on what I posted there

I think the Catholic church is in serious crisis if:
1) It thinks this is an important problem either in the world, or as regards children
2) It cannot agree and stick to a view on this in so short a space of time

If Harry Potter is really so bad, then we should also ban Brothers Grimm and Disney fairy-tales.

It has also been pointed out before how they celebrate Christmas at Hogwarts.

And finally, if young children can be so easily influenced, why is it acceptable for the Church to indoctrinate them with it's own fairy-tales.

[iansales]

Christianity in all its forms is facing something of a crisis, so it seems they've chosen to respond by claiming a monopoly on moral behaviour. The same sort of attitude was levelled at The Golden Compass - that Pullman is an atheist, therefore he promotes immoral behaviour. Absolute bollocks, of course. Non-christians are as moral - or even as amoral or immoral - as christians. Harry Potter might well feature wizardry and witchcraft, but that has nothing to do with any moral framework the books might promote.

[hlywkar]

the only thing I have to say is that hater, fear(ers), or anyone that has a specific hated for something will fight more strongly than someone that believes the opposite. I am fairly certain that the people that do not think this is occult propaganda vastly outnumber the amount that do. That being said, the amount that do will more likely put things into action against the book. While others just sit back and do next to nothing... that's how things like this continue to exist.

I have yet to be convinced that any book brainwashes people.